A walk is as good as a hit...maybe

[bkbjones]

Bases loaded. 1 out. Tie score, bottom of 8th. Count is 3-0. Next pitch is ball four. Runner from third scores, game over.

Or is it? Batter became a runner with the award of first base on ball four, but never advanced.

With less than two outs, this doesn't seem to me to be a big issue about the batter-runner not advancing (unless there is something I am overlooking). It COULD have been if other runners did not advance, but I believe the others did advance to their base. (I was not one of the umpires for this game, but was watching the tail end of it.)

With two outs, it could be a big issue.

So...what do you do as an umpire?
Does the defense have to appeal the batter-runner not advancing to first?
Is the ball dead as soon as the runner from 3B scores? Or does it remain live?
What of the runners on 1st and 2nd? If THEY don't advance, could they be called out?
If the batter-runner advances to first, but one of the other runners doesn't advance to their base, what happens?
At what point could a play or appeal be made on a runner (or batter-runner) for failing to advance?

And...what should the umpires do? They probably wouldn't want to give the whole thing away by their actions...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

Bases loaded. 1 out. Tie score, bottom of 8th. Count is 3-0. Next pitch is ball four. Runner from third scores, game over.

Or is it? Batter became a runner with the award of first base on ball four, but never advanced.

With less than two outs, this doesn't seem to me to be a big issue about the batter-runner not advancing (unless there is something I am overlooking). It COULD have been if other runners did not advance, but I believe the others did advance to their base. (I was not one of the umpires for this game, but was watching the tail end of it.)

With two outs, it could be a big issue.

So...what do you do as an umpire?
Does the defense have to appeal the batter-runner not advancing to first?
Is the ball dead as soon as the runner from 3B scores? Or does it remain live?
What of the runners on 1st and 2nd? If THEY don't advance, could they be called out?
If the batter-runner advances to first, but one of the other runners doesn't advance to their base, what happens?
At what point could a play or appeal be made on a runner (or batter-runner) for failing to advance?

And...what should the umpires do? They probably wouldn't want to give the whole thing away by their actions...

Didn't we just cover this a little while ago, or a similar situation? Or was that on another board? Yep, senility is coming on strong

There are a couple of selling points. ASA rule book states the runner on 3rd is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when forced to vacate the base due to the batter being awarded 1B on a walk. Does that mean the run automatically scores? Don't know, but can you sell it?

As the umpire, I'm going to be watching a few things. Obviously, the runner(s), the infielders and then, I'll be watching what the coaches are watching. Once that runner scores, I will be looking for my partner to join me to exit the field and no, I'm not running. I'm doing exactly what the umpires are supposed to do. The time I'm waiting for my partner, or s/he is waiting for me, is a reasonable amount of time for the defense to make any appeal. As I stated, I will see what the defense's coach is watching, so I will have a pretty good idea if s/he has any intention of having a player make an appeal.

If the base umpire is on their game, s/he will not come dashing off the field on ball four, but execute the same mechanic as they would if this were not a game-winning issue. This will sometimes let the coaches know that you are looking for the bases to be touched. Same for the PU. Remove the mask and step out to an area which you will be able to see R1 touch the plate and do it with intent, not watching over the shoulder while walking toward the gate.

If an appeal is made, there is another piece of the puzzle of which the umpire must be aware. Does anyone "aid" the runner toward 1B.

However, like it or not, if the defense makes the proper appeals, and the umpire is still in position to make the call, it must be made. Here is where it gets touchy. Unless the runners are not in jeopardy and haven't left the field of play, they are still entitled to advance to the next base, by rule. So, if none of the runners were aided, the appeal cannot be valid until one of the runners have actually entered DBT and the defense still has at least one infielder in fair territory.

[Dakota]

So, what do you do about the runner or BR entering DBT? That is not an appeal. (8-7-U)

[jimpiano]

By rule if the batter touches first and the third base runner touches home the game is over. What the other runners do on a walk is irrelevant. (with less than two outs the batter/runner does not have to touch first base and the game is over when the runner scores from third)

With two outs, if the third base runner or the batter fail to touch and enter dead ball territory they are out and the game goes on. Again, the other runners cannot be called out on a walk.

If either the third base runner or the batter/runner simply fails to touch and does not enter dead ball territory then the umpires should give the defense adequate time to appeal before the umpires leave the live ball area. The rule book says an appeal cannot be made when the pitcher and infielders have left fair territory.

Thread: A walk is as good as a hit...maybe Reply to Thread

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

By rule if the batter touches first and the third base runner touches home the game is over. What the other runners do on a walk is irrelevant....

Can you cite that rule?

[jimpiano]

Rule 8-5,A

Runners are entitled to advance one base without liability to be put out when forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded a base on balls.

Rule 5-5 One run shall be scored when a runner has touched first, second, third and home.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Rule 8-5,A

Runners are entitled to advance one base without liability to be put out when forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded a base on balls.

Rule 5-5 One run shall be scored when a runner has touched first, second, third and home.

And where do those two rules tell us that an appeal on R2 or R3 failing to touch a base they were forced to advance to is not a force out?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Rule 8-5,A

Runners are entitled to advance one base without liability to be put out when forced to vacate a base because the batter was awarded a base on balls.

Rule 5-5 One run shall be scored when a runner has touched first, second, third and home.

I think what Jim is getting at is that at the bottom of the inning in a tie score situation, one runner legally touching home means ball game. All other runners can miss bases, dance in circles or stand on their head for all we care. The defense can appeal all they want, but it won't do them any good as any appeal on a *succeeding* runner does not prevent the run from being counted.

[jimpiano]

Because when the runner hit home and the batter hit first the game was over.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I think what Jim is getting at is that at the bottom of the inning in a tie score situation, one runner legally touching home means ball game. All other runners can miss bases, dance in circles or stand on their head for all we care. The defense can appeal all they want, but it won't do them any good as any appeal on a *succeeding* runner does not prevent the run from being counted.

You are mixing rules.

First off, a runner scoring apparent winning run does NOT mean the ballgame is over. Appeals on other runners can definitely cause a run to be pulled off the board.

Second - the rules quote by piano have nothing to do with this situation.

Third - the rule regarding an appeal out on BR or a scored runner have to do with FOURTH out appeals - and again ... nothing to do with this situation.

Ask yourself this - if this was a single, and not a walk, and R2 or R3 failed to touch the base they were forced to ... would an appeal at that base nullify the run? (Hopefully, the answer is "of course.") So ... what makes THIS situation different? The only difference on a walk is that they may advance without liability to be put out. However, there is nothing absolving from their responsibility to actually advance. If they miss the base they are going to, and leave the field of play, they can certainly be appealed for missing that base - and such an appeal would be a force out. And we all know what happens when a force out for a 3rd out occurs after a run has apparently scored, don't we?

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I think what Jim is getting at is that at the bottom of the inning in a tie score situation, one runner legally touching home means ball game. All other runners can miss bases, dance in circles or stand on their head for all we care. The defense can appeal all they want, but it won't do them any good as any appeal on a *succeeding* runner does not prevent the run from being counted.

Thank you.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Because when the runner hit home and the batter hit first the game was over.

I ask again - what rule tells you this? Where do you get these made up rules? Answer for us the question(s) I posted to NCASA. They apply to you as well.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I think what Jim is getting at is that at the bottom of the inning in a tie score situation, one runner legally touching home means ball game. All other runners can miss bases, dance in circles or stand on their head for all we care. The defense can appeal all they want, but it won't do them any good as any appeal on a *succeeding* runner does not prevent the run from being counted.

jim's expression of appreciation notwithstanding, what about mcrowder's points?

I know there is a custom (especially in MLB) that in this situation the only runners that matter are R1 and the BR.

"By custom" is different from "by rule." jim said "by rule". What rule? And, the rule had better address that the other runners don't matter, or it is not the rule that pertains to what jim said was "by rule."

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

You are mixing rules.

First off, a runner scoring apparent winning run does NOT mean the ballgame is over. Appeals on other runners can definitely cause a run to be pulled off the board.

Second - the rules quote by piano have nothing to do with this situation.

Third - the rule regarding an appeal out on BR or a scored runner have to do with FOURTH out appeals - and again ... nothing to do with this situation.

Ask yourself this - if this was a single, and not a walk, and R2 or R3 failed to touch the base they were forced to ... would an appeal at that base nullify the run? (Hopefully, the answer is "of course.") So ... what makes THIS situation different? The only difference on a walk is that they may advance without liability to be put out. However, there is nothing absolving from their responsibility to actually advance. If they miss the base they are going to, and leave the field of play, they can certainly be appealed for missing that base - and such an appeal would be a force out. And we all know what happens when a force out for a 3rd out occurs after a run has apparently scored, don't we?

I totally disagree.

A walk is not the same as a hit, because on a hit the runners have liability to be put out if they fail to advance.

Once the batter has touched first base on a base on balls the advance by the runner on third to home ends the game and there are no appeals that can be honored for other runners failing to advance.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by Dakota

jim's expression of appreciation notwithstanding, what about mcrowder's points?

I know there is a custom (especially in MLB) that in this situation the only runners that matter are R1 and the BR.

"By custom" is different from "by rule." jim said "by rule". What rule? And, the rule had better address that the other runners don't matter, or it is not the rule that pertains to what jim said was "by rule."

I already cited the rules.