Defensive huddles after warm-up pitches and half-innings

[Bluefoot]

A couple of years ago, I remember that it was emphasized to us that we were to stop teams from holding defensive huddles, and exceeding their warm-up time each inning. Particularly after the 5 warm-up pitches have already been thrown, then the infield huddles at the mound before starting the half-inning. And also after defensive half-innings also.

In an NFHS game yesterday, the home team held a defensive huddle after the warm-up pitches were thrown, and before starting the top of the first inning started. The PU told the team "No defensive huddles allowed," and the huddle broke up. In each successive inning, the home team continued to huddle in this same manner, and the PU kept telling them to stop their huddling. After a few innings, he stopped saying anything and just let them continue on. If he had a spine and chose to impart the correct penalty, what would that be by NFHS or ASA rules? I cannot find anything in either set of rules prohibiting huddling, but I do remember that it was emphasized to us a couple of years ago to stop teams from doing it.

Can the PU rule that they have exceeded their one minute warm-up period and call ball one on the leadoff batter, even though an excess of 5 warm-up pitches had not been thrown?

The result of this team and umpire's behaviors gave the impression that the home team could dictate the terms of their warm-up as they chose.

Also, the after the home team made each defensive third out of all 7 innings, all nine players on the field gathered at the mound to form a line and high-five each other, as most teams do at the end of games only. Is there any rule against this type of action? Once the third out is made, is the defense obligated to vacate the field of play immediately? Is this considered another huddle?

All of the actions described above gave the sense to everyone present that the home team could do whatever it wanted, regardless of rules, umpires, or common courtesy.

Is the team described above doing anything against the rules? And if so, what should the umpire(s) do?

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Bluefoot

A couple of years ago, I remember that it was emphasized to us that we were to stop teams from holding defensive huddles, and exceeding their warm-up time each inning. Particularly after the 5 warm-up pitches have already been thrown, then the infield huddles at the mound before starting the half-inning. And also after defensive half-innings also.

In an NFHS game yesterday, the home team held a defensive huddle after the warm-up pitches were thrown, and before starting the top of the first inning started. The PU told the team "No defensive huddles allowed," and the huddle broke up. In each successive inning, the home team continued to huddle in this same manner, and the PU kept telling them to stop their huddling. After a few innings, he stopped saying anything and just let them continue on. If he had a spine and chose to impart the correct penalty, what would that be by NFHS or ASA rules? I cannot find anything in either set of rules prohibiting huddling, but I do remember that it was emphasized to us a couple of years ago to stop teams from doing it.

Can the PU rule that they have exceeded their one minute warm-up period and call ball one on the leadoff batter, even though an excess of 5 warm-up pitches had not been thrown?

The result of this team and umpire's behaviors gave the impression that the home team could dictate the terms of their warm-up as they chose.

Also, the after the home team made each defensive third out of all 7 innings, all nine players on the field gathered at the mound to form a line and high-five each other, as most teams do at the end of games only. Is there any rule against this type of action? Once the third out is made, is the defense obligated to vacate the field of play immediately? Is this considered another huddle?

All of the actions described above gave the sense to everyone present that the home team could do whatever it wanted, regardless of rules, umpires, or common courtesy.

Is the team described above doing anything against the rules? And if so, what should the umpire(s) do?

There is no rule to prevent a huddle on the mound after the warm up pitches are thrown, provided that the team is still within their one minute allotted time between innings. The emphasis that you are talking about from two or so years ago, was to prevent teams from huddling outside of their dugouts between innings while teams were warming up. (It was deemed a safety issue)

I am a firm believer in teams sticking to the one minute rule, which incidentally begins with the third out of the previous half innining. However, don't be overly officious when enforcing this. If you notice that a team huddles after warm-up pitches have been thrown, then reduce the number of pitches they throw the next time by informing the catcher on the third(or even second or first) warm up pitch that it is time for balls in and the warm-ups to cease.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

There is no rule to prevent a huddle on the mound after the warm up pitches are thrown, provided that the team is still within their one minute allotted time between innings. The emphasis that you are talking about from two or so years ago, was to prevent teams from huddling outside of their dugouts between innings while teams were warming up. (It was deemed a safety issue)

I am a firm believer in teams sticking to the one minute rule, which incidentally begins with the third out of the previous half innining. However, don't be overly officious when enforcing this. If you notice that a team huddles after warm-up pitches have been thrown, then reduce the number of pitches they throw the next time by informing the catcher on the third(or even second or first) warm up pitch that it is time for balls in and the warm-ups to cease.

Exactly what I do. I'm not going to baby sit huddles, its a common thing for the players.

I will say "catcher take it down on 3" or whatever if time is used up.

This comes to the point to remember though, the game is the girls game, not our game. I'm all talk and little action here in most cases. There have been rare occasions where I have been pushed to the "Ball" point.. I'm not going to do it without good cause. Generally, a 10-15 second huddle is not it. That's where they walk the line and get away with it in terms of a punitive punishment.

[WestMichBlue]

IMO, you need to lighten up a bit. Girls huddle in the pitching circle after the throw down, and they huddle in CF. They hold hands and chat at each other and finally break it up with a cheer.

WHY? Because that is what girls do!

Some still don’t understand that girls approach sports differently than boys do. Yes, girls are competitive; yes they play hard and are willing to knock each other down and get scrapped and bruised and break bones. But if they fail personally (ie., strike-out) they don’t get mad and have temper tantrums (bats and helmets thrown or slammed in the dugout). Boys approach sports from an individualistic standpoint; it is all about them and their personal challenge to succeed. It is an affront to their manhood if they strike out or hit into a DP or fail to get the batter out. Temper displays are used to tell everybody that they really are better; that this was just a slight aberration.

Girls play sports for social purposes. They get together to chat with friends and make new friends and lead cheers and simply have fun. Even in the pressure of the WCWS, those adult women are cheering and chattering and having fun in the dugouts.

So when a girl strikes out, she simply turns around and goes back to the dugout, knowing she still has a game to play, and will probably get another chance. And 10 seconds later she is leading the cheers for a teammate. If a girl gets injured, she won’t come out of the game. Boys are willing to sit if they know they cannot perform at their highest level; girls simply want to be with their teammates.

If you want to test this theory, set a bunch of basketballs on the floor of an empty gym. Bring in the boy’s team and see what happens. Boys immediately grab a ball and start shooting. Before long, you will see one-on-one matches going on. Bring the girl’s team into the gym and see what happens. They will sit in the bleachers and chat girl talk.

So let them be girls. Their attitudes towards clothing and hats, etc. are different from boys; their approach to the game is different. Enjoy the differences.

WMB

[Bluefoot]

So if you let them huddle after they have already used up their minute warming up, how long do you let them do their huddle/chit-chat, because that's what girls do?

I'm talking about one team taking over control of the field and game. They blatantly ignored the umpire's instruction, and he seemed powerless in the way that he handled it.

And no one has even addressed what I brought up about the team huddling on the mound when the half-inning is over and the other team is trying to take the field and warm up.

[greymule]

WestMichBlue, for your public assertion that girls and boys are not identical in every way, I have reported you to the Department of Political Correctness.

The department says you are in clear violation of the law. However, being reasonable, they say that if you will agree that any apparent differences are the result purely of sexist oppression, they will forgo disciplinary action on this occasion.

Otherwise, you can expect a raid on your home at any time.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Bluefoot

So if you let them huddle after they have already used up their minute warming up, how long do you let them do their huddle/chit-chat, because that's what girls do?

I'm talking about one team taking over control of the field and game. They blatantly ignored the umpire's instruction, and he seemed powerless in the way that he handled it.

And no one has even addressed what I brought up about the team huddling on the mound when the half-inning is over and the other team is trying to take the field and warm up.

If it is a problem, then address it with the coach. He/she will know what to do. The umpire shouldn't address the players in matters like this anyway. If you feel their "violation" is a case of unsportsmanlike conduct for ignoring an umpire's directive, then run the coach. But let them know that is what you plan to do when you address the "bothersome huddles" issue with them.

But keep in mind, there is nothing in the rule book to warrant this action by the umpire.

[BretMan]

Apparently, neither you nor the umpire at this game had a correct understanding of the "no huddle" rule in high school softball. And to top it off, the umpire possibly might be lacking in game management skills.

If the umpire seems "powerless" to control a team comprised of high school girls, he needs to either: a) grow a pair, or; b) brush up on his game management techniques.

As for your last question, this is easy. "Girls, the inning is over. Clear the field and take your huddle outside the fence!", delivered in a loud, firm, assertive, mean-old-umpire tone of voice, should be a good start.

If they continue, take the issue up with their coach.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

IMO, you need to lighten up a bit. Girls huddle in the pitching circle after the throw down, and they huddle in CF. They hold hands and chat at each other and finally break it up with a cheer.

WHY? Because that is what girls do!

Some still don’t understand that girls approach sports differently than boys do. Yes, girls are competitive; yes they play hard and are willing to knock each other down and get scrapped and bruised and break bones. But if they fail personally (ie., strike-out) they don’t get mad and have temper tantrums (bats and helmets thrown or slammed in the dugout). Boys approach sports from an individualistic standpoint; it is all about them and their personal challenge to succeed. It is an affront to their manhood if they strike out or hit into a DP or fail to get the batter out. Temper displays are used to tell everybody that they really are better; that this was just a slight aberration.

Girls play sports for social purposes. They get together to chat with friends and make new friends and lead cheers and simply have fun. Even in the pressure of the WCWS, those adult women are cheering and chattering and having fun in the dugouts.

So when a girl strikes out, she simply turns around and goes back to the dugout, knowing she still has a game to play, and will probably get another chance. And 10 seconds later she is leading the cheers for a teammate. If a girl gets injured, she won’t come out of the game. Boys are willing to sit if they know they cannot perform at their highest level; girls simply want to be with their teammates.

If you want to test this theory, set a bunch of basketballs on the floor of an empty gym. Bring in the boy’s team and see what happens. Boys immediately grab a ball and start shooting. Before long, you will see one-on-one matches going on. Bring the girl’s team into the gym and see what happens. They will sit in the bleachers and chat girl talk.

So let them be girls. Their attitudes towards clothing and hats, etc. are different from boys; their approach to the game is different. Enjoy the differences.

WMB

Yuck.. i believe if I showed this to any of the teams in our leagues (at least the 12U, 14U, 16U and HS teams), they'd crucify you. You must live in a different neighborhood than any I've been to. Perhaps it's called the 50's.

As to the OP, with teams that this is a problem with, I've cut the pitches to 3, 2, or even 1. MOST of our games locally below HS level are timed games - so they are wasting time that should be used to play softball. I have the full support of the people running the league on this. In a tourney 2 years ago, 1 team was particularly bad - cutting it to 1 pitch wasn't enough, and I DID begin issuing balls. Strangely - they still didn't care and did it anyway, and in the games I worked with them in it - it didn't matter, pitcher was that good.

[NCASAUmp]

From an ASA background here...

If it's a quick huddle that sets the no time limit game back 10-15 seconds, let them do it. But if they waste a bunch of time (or if the game has time limits), then go to the coach and explain to him that they've got one (and only one) minute between innings after that third out is caught before you signal them to play. If they continue to huddle up and delay the game, tell him you'll charge them a defensive conference and hold the coach responsible if they run out of conferences and he does nothing to speed things up. If it really gets out of hand, remind the coach that if a team employs tactics to deliberately delay the game, it can result in much stronger penalties (a 7-0 loss).

I'm taking it to an extreme here, but in my opinion, you would be backed by the ASA rule book if you were truly forced to do so. Since I personally have never witnessed these huddles, this is *pure* speculation. Don't flame me for it.

[RPatrino]

You could always make good use of that extra time the huddle gives you to continue inspecting equipment, measuring/dusting off the bases/pitchers plate or checking if the softballs are legal.

[Bluefoot]

The visiting coach wanted to know why he had his team in complaince within all NFHS and ASA rules, and the ump was letting the home team dictate their own set of rules with this behavior.

[umpire503]

...However, I don't know much about girls, (not really, I raised 4 children), If you asked them once, and you feel that you were being ignored, (now that's making a mockery out of the game), NFHS rule 6-2-2,c covers this as a delay of game, providing that more than 20 seconds have passed since the pitcher recieved the ball. But, if the other coach doesen't mind, and you don't mind, I wouldn't be checkin' my watch (that I did not bring to the field!)

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by umpire503

NFHS rule 6-2-2,c covers this as a delay of game, providing that more than 20 seconds have passed since the pitcher recieved the ball.

Now is this in the NFHS Softball or Baseball Rules book?

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Girls play sports for social purposes. They get together to chat with friends and make new friends and lead cheers and simply have fun. Even in the pressure of the WCWS, those adult women are cheering and chattering and having fun in the dugouts.

Actually that is not true, according to ASA surveys conducted annually.

I can go get my notes for the ACE classes that I teach our ASA coaches to give you the exact number, but well over two-thirds of the girls playing ASA ball play for the opportunity to play ball. An amazingly small percentage are there to be with friends or for other social purposes. They, like many boys, play because they love the game. Yes, they express themselves differently from boys, but as a wise man once said, vive l'difference.