Catcher sues baserunner for collision (co-ed ball)

[jsblanton]

I have played some co-ed softball. Hated it but played. We had a guy crash into our female shortstop (who is probably the best player on the team) while she was waiting to catch a fly ball. I thought the field ump was going to have to be restrained. He was furious. A few innings later, same guy on 1B had the ball stuck in his ear on a double play attempt. Field ump called batter runner out for the interference. I was on the bench just thinking to myself,"I have to go to work tomorrow this is a Sunday afternoon softball game and people are trying to hurt each other. I no longer play.

[greymule]

I couldn't imagine not defending my wife if she was pitching and some idiot hit 3 rockets at her.

Her husband was in fact playing in that game, but in the case of the line drives he didn't do anything. He's no shrinking violet, though: in the last game of the season he challenged a wisea$$ opponent (an ump in my association, no less) who had done some dirty crash or said something or other. So much of that garbage happens, I can hardly keep it straight from year to year.

In that township's co-ed championship game that year, I as BU watched the PU toss a whiner who popped up for the second-to-last out of the game after arguing about a high pitch. The whiner works for a big insurance company—in the same office as the PU who tossed him.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by jsblanton

I have played some co-ed softball. Hated it but played. We had a guy crash into our female shortstop (who is probably the best player on the team) while she was waiting to catch a fly ball. I thought the field ump was going to have to be restrained. He was furious. A few innings later, same guy on 1B had the ball stuck in his ear on a double play attempt. Field ump called batter runner out for the interference. I was on the bench just thinking to myself,"I have to go to work tomorrow this is a Sunday afternoon softball game and people are trying to hurt each other. I no longer play.

I'm trying to reconcile a furious BU and an un-ejected runner. I think I'd have restrained my fury, but ejected him without worrying about it. Surprised an enraged umpire didn't toss the player.

[JPRempe]

The guy should have been warned about his behavior on his prior ejection, and banned at least for the remainder of the year on the last collision with the woman catcher.

He absolutely should be held liable for the physical suffering he caused that women. He blatantly violated the rules of the league, and in the process of violating those rules, caused a serious injury. That's definitely criminal behavior...

[SRW]

Originally Posted by JPRempe

The guy should have been warned about his behavior on his prior ejection, and banned at least for the remainder of the year on the last collision with the woman catcher.

He absolutely should be held liable for the physical suffering he caused that women. He blatantly violated the rules of the league, and in the process of violating those rules, caused a serious injury. That's definitely criminal behavior...

You seem to be a pretty good armchair attorney. What's your hourly rate?

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by SRW

You seem to be a pretty good armchair attorney. What's your hourly rate?

I'm still finishing law school (going to night school). How'd you know?

[NCASAUmp]

First time he's had to eject someone in 15 years? You're right... Where has he been? Back home in WI, I had to toss someone almost once a week. Cursing at players, nearly starting fights... All in the name of "good evening fun."

But you get these idiots who watch the Majors do it all the time and think, "hey, that's how you get it done." Personally, I think they should eliminate collisions, take-out slides and phantom tags from the majors. Collisions and take-out slides are the cheaters' cheap way of getting what they want at the expense of another's livelihood (how many shortstops have had to retire early because some idiot kicked out their kneecaps?). Those being gone, phantom tags wouldn't be necessary, bringing the game back to how it should be played.

Kids in little league watch these players get away with it, then emulate the behavior on their local fields. They later grow up and pull these kinds of stunts in co-ed softball games (how many times have we watched a slow-pitch player and said, "I'll bet you my next paycheck he played baseball?").

Throw the book at this moron. Absolutely no call for that, and I don't tolerate it on my field.

[greymule]

how many shortstops have had to retire early because some idiot kicked out their kneecaps?

I can't think of any offhand. And except for the Rose/Fosse incident, I can't think of a truly damaging crash or takeout slide, either. But maybe I'm wrong. And I don't know what happened during the Cobb era.

In terms of phantom tags, professional baserunners, as opposed to kids, know the difference. What pro is going to be suckered by a fake tag? Further, purely phantom tags solely for the reason of messing up the runner—such as after a foul ball—will be remembered and punished just like dirty slides and other violations of the unwritten rules of the game.

This may bother some people, but I have always felt that at higher levels of play, a fake tag is not unsportsmanlike when it accomplishes a strategic purpose. Example: R1 stealing 2B, pitch gets by the catcher. F6, whether by covering 2B or reaching as if for the ball, gets R1 to slide into 2B and thus reduce his chance of making 3B. If I'm the runner, I wouldn't think anything of F6 faking a tag. Even if I fall for it, I simply slide. Shame on me for not looking at the ball or watching the coach.

Kids, of course, are another story. When I played in the 1960s, takeout slides were legal in high school (so was crashing the catcher), and it was right that they were legal. Everybody wore metal spikes, too. (How many players did I see injured by metal spikes? Zero.) But the situation has changed—kids no longer spend their summers on the sandlot. Today, it is better that such slides are not legal.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by greymule

how many shortstops have had to retire early because some idiot kicked out their kneecaps?

I can't think of any offhand. And except for the Rose/Fosse incident, I can't think of a truly damaging crash or takeout slide, either. But maybe I'm wrong. And I don't know what happened during the Cobb era.

In terms of phantom tags, professional baserunners, as opposed to kids, know the difference. What pro is going to be suckered by a fake tag? Further, purely phantom tags solely for the reason of messing up the runner—such as after a foul ball—will be remembered and punished just like dirty slides and other violations of the unwritten rules of the game.

Actually, Jim Gantner, a well-respected second baseman for the Milwaukee Brewers in the 80s, had his knee completely destroyed by a take-out slide. Thus, I believe that take-out slides are completely bogus, and I toss out any SP player that makes an obvious attempt to employ one.

Referring to "phantom tags," I wasn't referring to "fake tags" as defined by the ASA rule book. What I was referring to was the shortstop or second baseman sweeping his foot behind the base for the force out, setting them up for a better throw to first for a double-play. "Phantom tag" might be the regional term for such a play. Sorry about the confusion, but I think my explanation might clarify my previous statements about my distaste for them. Tag the friggin' bag, dummy!

[JCurrie]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Referring to "phantom tags," I wasn't referring to "fake tags" as defined by the ASA rule book. What I was referring to was the shortstop or second baseman sweeping his foot behind the base for the force out, setting them up for a better throw to first for a double-play. "Phantom tag" might be the regional term for such a play. Sorry about the confusion, but I think my explanation might clarify my previous statements about my distaste for them. Tag the friggin' bag, dummy!

I think most people would call that play a "neighborhood play."

[scottk_61]

Originally Posted by JCurrie

I think most people would call that play a "neighborhood play."

Nope, phantom tag it is.
And it has been since I went to the pro school so many moons ago

[greymule]

"Phantom tag" might be the regional term for such a play.

I did think you meant "fake tag." My mistake. In New Jersey, the "phantom tag" is indeed called the "neighborhood play," but of course Noo Joisey has its own unique terms (and pronunciations) for many things, including its capital city, Tret'n.

[IRISHMAFIA]

In my region:

Fake tag - defender simulating the execution of a tag on a runner while not in possession of the ball.

Phantom tag - defender sweeping glove w/ball in front of base without actually tagging the runner, yet getting the out call.

Neighborhood play - a defender executing an attempted force out, or an out at 1B on the BR, who either receives the ball after losing contact with base or throwing the ball prior to contacting the target base. Often, just a passing sweep of a foot by F6 on and attempted catch and release toward F3 to complete back end of a DP.

[greymule]

Just to clarify: fake tag and neighborhood play are the same here as in Delaware. But we don't seem to use the term phantom tag. At least I don't recall hearing it.

But here we play catch or have a catch,while in Maine they play pass and in other places they play toss.

I've also heard SP players whining, "Come on, Blue, that's a Delaware strike," but I'm not sure exactly what that means. Maybe that they think the pitch was "deep" (over the shoulder).

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by greymule

Just to clarify: fake tag and neighborhood play are the same here as in Delaware. But we don't seem to use the term phantom tag. At least I don't recall hearing it.

But here we play catch or have a catch,while in Maine they play pass and in other places they play toss.

I've also heard SP players whining, "Come on, Blue, that's a Delaware strike," but I'm not sure exactly what that means. Maybe that they think the pitch was "deep" (over the shoulder).

Any of those called with a double fist pump?

Had a neighborhood play opportunity the other day. If second base had a foot high pile of dog dung, the SS wouldn't have been able to smell it. Of course I do my dead level best, somehow remembering to do the off the base signal first before the safe signal. Amazing how when you remember to do those "other" signals (off the bag, pulled foot, etc) before the safe signal, the amount of dog dung coming from the dugout is greatly diminished -- even in men's slow pitch.