Two Umpires System question

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by argodad

This is a good chance to properly deviate from the "BU takes the BR all the way to third" mechanic. When the BU moves into foul ground for the possible call at 1B on a throw from the right fielder, the PU should move toward the pitcher's circle. If the throw to first is poor and the runner attempts second, the PU should communicate, "I have the runner" -- and the BU communicates, "I have the plate" -- and rotates behind the PU.

I agree that the PU should be in position to possibly pick up BU if necessary. IMO, and one I have heard universally, is that there is NO TIME that 2 man mechanics call for the BU to cover home. The sole exception that I can think of is if the PU breaks his leg and is laying on the ground immobile.

If I am PU and I have the runner, I have the runner the rest of that play, unless the runner retreats to 1B. If I hear "I have the plate", my response is "NO, YOU DON'T".

[Antonella]

Dear friends,

I found very helpful all your posts.
I agree the situation in the OP should be an exception to the standard movements.

My opinion is that BU in a simple situation should follow the runner towards second base… if the ball (throw, play) comes from the area between home plate/first base/foul territory, BU should try to go to 2^ staying OUTSIDE the baseline. If the ball (throw, play) comes from the OUTFIELD (foul or fair it doesn’t matter - e.g. a no catch), BU should follow the runner staying in the infield. To say it differently the “outside/inside theory” should be followed also in this kind of situation.
And - plus - we are still following the principle Henry Pollard said once (and I never forget) "the play dictates".

I ABSOLUTELY agree that sometimes PU has a better angle to a possible play at second base: PU is already (almost) in the middle of the infield (trailing batter-runner) and what PU should do is just continue towards second base. In this scenario BU is obviously “blocked” in foul territory and cannot reach the right position to follow BR!

My FINAL question is: should we adopt the “exception” (PU covering the bases and BU go at the plate) as a “rule” (a drawing on our manual) or we should better say this is just an alternate possibility based on what will happen during the play and/or the two umps decisions before the game?

Ancora grazie per l’aiuto!

[azbigdawg]

On those hits, its REALLY important to GET INSIDE the diamond and NOT get stuck in foul territory.... Ive seen too many base umpires "watch" the ball into right field for too long, and get stuck outside as a result....and once you get stuck out there, youre useless on an overthrow. You will NOT catch the runner to get a good look at the play at second. So try HARD to get in there. It IS almost always possible. Having said that, If I work with an umpire that I havent seen or met before, I will pregame this exact scenario so that we have 2nd base covered. I dont think it should be adopted as a mechanics because its technically a breakdown in coverage...

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Antonella

My FINAL question is: should we adopt the “exception” (PU covering the bases and BU go at the plate) as a “rule” (a drawing on our manual)

Only if you add this coverage is to be used only when plate umpire breaks a leg, or suffers some other crippling injury covering the bases for the base umpire.

Base umpire NEVER covers home in two umpire mechanics. Not on this play; NEVER. You already had one breakdown in responsibility and coverage; certainly don't add a second breakdown in the same play.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Only if you add this coverage is to be used only when plate umpire breaks a leg, or suffers some other crippling injury covering the bases for the base umpire.

Base umpire NEVER covers home in two umpire mechanics. Not on this play; NEVER. You already had one breakdown in responsibility and coverage; certainly don't add a second breakdown in the same play.

Why are you so adamant on this? What if the PU covering home runs the risk of putting him in a throwing lane. The BU could have already made it to the point of the plate holding area long ago, be set and waiting for any potential play at the plate. Why not maximize your use of umpires?? I personally have no problem with my partner taking the play at home if I am the PU in the scenario we have discussed. He is already there, ahead of the play.

[bigsig]

Antonella,

I know there are times when a sharply hit ball to right filed will require you to position yourself in foul territory in order to make that call at 1st, and while there is a lot of good advice here, let me reiterate, whenever possible try to get yourself into the infield on all balls hit to the outfield (base hits). You will be in much better position to watch runners hit bases and make calls at 2nd and/or 3rd.

If you have the good fortune to work with the same partner that’s great, but I’ll do 32 FED games this year and over 100 ASA/PONY games and rarely have the same partner. Don’t put your self in the position of assuming the PU will cover 3rd, in my experience it happens infrequently.

Hope you have a great season!

[bkbjones]

Didn't mean to offend anyone with what I wrote, and didn't realize no one likes to hear stories like what I related. So...poof, it's gone. I'll take my 12 different medications on Saturday morning, put on my cap which is a little too big since all my hair keeps falling out in clumps, and drag my incompetent butt out on the field for a few games...then go home, take my other 6 different medications plus the five I take twice a day, and get ready to do it again on Sunday - and hope like hell I don't offend anyone in the umpiring community. I appreciate the opportunities I've had to umpire ... and I don't have any problem coming inside... and I certainly did not intend to support or suggest something that shows anything less than competency. You all have a good day and enjoy every opportunity you get.

[tcannizzo]

Nobody likes to hear stories like the one you write about. But any umpire in reasonably good shape can get inside, before F3 gets into position to take a throw. There are cases where F9 is playing close to the edge of the grass, and a hot shot is hit directly there...Otherwise, I have a problem with competency.

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Nobody likes to hear stories like the one you write about. But any umpire in reasonably good shape can get inside, before F3 gets into position to take a throw. There are cases where F9 is playing close to the edge of the grass, and a hot shot is hit directly there...Otherwise, I have a problem with competency.

Tony is RIGHT..... unless that fielder is already WAY up close to the infield..and unless its a sharp and I mean ROCKET to the outfield..... you can..and SHOULD get inside...... I DONT mean to question anyones competency..but if you get HIT with a ball in that situation...YOU SCREWED UP...I know that sounds harsh, but its the truth...... on those shots, take one FAST look WHILE YOU ARE ALREADY MOVING..and get inside. you should know where the fielder is before the pitch..... I have no problem with the BU getting to the plate on this BREAKDOWN, but I think that it should be a very rare occurence.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

Of course, if we were in three man, the 1BU would go into, uh, foul ground.

If you had a 3-umpire crew, shouldn't U2 be heading toward right field to cover the catch?

A BU not going out should get inside the diamond anytime they can on a ball to the OF and it is not that difficult if the BU moves with the batted ball on it's way out, not waiting for the play and then attempting to beat the throw.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If you had a 3-umpire crew, shouldn't U2 be heading toward right field to cover the catch?

OP said it was a short ground ball, not a fly ball...

[CelticNHBlue]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Why are you so adamant on this? What if the PU covering home runs the risk of putting him in a throwing lane. The BU could have already made it to the point of the plate holding area long ago, be set and waiting for any potential play at the plate. Why not maximize your use of umpires?? I personally have no problem with my partner taking the play at home if I am the PU in the scenario we have discussed. He is already there, ahead of the play.

Not that Steve needs someone to stick up for him, but what scenario can you imagine where the plate umpire, inside the diamond, following this situation, would be in the way. The only possible scenario includes multiple bad throws, so unless the there was an attempt at second base and the throw went to the outfield fence allowing the batter runner to attempt for home, the throw will always come from the outfield third base line/foul territory area. And in the scenario I mentioned, it will be obvious that no play well occur at third and an observant umpire could retreat to the plate directly while watching the runner touch third and get into the standard calling position for this play.

That said, I have no problem relinquishing the plate to my base umpire as long as we communicate. The mechanics are a strong guideline, but sometimes you just have to adjust and I can see no reason why two umpires can't work together to make each job easier and keep umpires ahead of the play. In this case the base umpire has not chased, and even if they had, I still don't see a reason why they are never able to help out and take the plate. Most importantly, I think it is our top responsibility to make sure the play is covered and in the best position possible which means we can't rule out any umpire being at any base at any time for any call.

Now, something I haven't seen mentioned yet, in regards to the OP, is the first base umpire chasing on this play. With no runners on, my first instinct is to think trap possibilities and chase if necessary. This slight delay can sometimes eliminate my chance to get inside for the snap throw so if I don't chase, I stay outside. I think it is important to get inside whenever possible because the mechanics in the book are there to put umpires in the best place possible for all calls in all situations and deviating reduces opportunities in certain situations. I think it is important that an umpire not make this their default mechanic because of this reason and because it dumps effort and responsibility to your plate umpire.