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Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 04:39pm
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Made me think

Had an interesting situation Saturday; GHSA Sectional (semifinal tournament, cutting from 32 teams in a classification to 8), Georgia High School association, so playing NFHS rule. But, I think a universal circumstance.

R1 on 1st, count is 2-2. On ball (3), PU says "ball", batter trots to first, R1 advances to 2B, while defense makes no play (although verbalizing "that's only ball three"). After both runners stop, defensive coach requests "time", and asks umpires to verify count. PU thought ball four, probably stated 3-2 before the pitch, but never said "four"; both base umpires agree that is ball three. We return batter to plate; R1 starts to return to 1B. I stop her (I am U1 in 3 umpire crew), and state that her proper base is now 2B. Defensive coach knows that is correct, that runner advanced in jeopardy and that his defense should have attempted a play; but questions why I would tell the runner who was voluntarily returning that she should stay on 2B. He also stated he thought my action was, in affect, coaching (not in a negative way, just by way of why he thought I should remain silent).

My response was that this was a dead ball situation, as he had requested and was granted time for the conversation. Just as I should (and he would rightfully expect) stop a runner from improperly advancing in that case, I should also keep a runner on the proper base. In a live ball situation, I would stay silent, and let a runner be in jeopardy (or retreat safely, if so disposed, and the LBR was not in affect). He accepted that explanation, our conversation was just that (conversation, not an argument), and the game moved on.

What say all of you? Do you agree? Same for all rulesets (as I believe), or does anyone think one or more rulesets would vary?
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Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 05:01pm
JEL JEL is offline
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Gotta love the sectionals! Had some fun in Dublin!

I would agree that due to the DB situation you could send the runner back to 2B, and would probably do the same.

I do have some reservations in this case about leaving R1 at second though. You said that the PU "probably stated 3-2 before the pitch" if that were so, the defense wouldn't think that there was a steal attempt, and the catcher would also be acting under the assumption that no play was to be made.

If the 3-2 count was NOT stated, then leave R1 at 2B, and return the batter.


Not to hijack, but there are postings on another board about the Dublin AAA sectionals where the count was lost (supposedly) as the batter fouled off many on a 3-2 count. After about 7 (reported) fouls, ball 4 was thrown, then the original ball count was questioned.

I sometimes feel a bit silly giving the same count over and over in those situations, but I have been "bit" by failing to do so!
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Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 05:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEL
I do have some reservations in this case about leaving R1 at second though. You said that the PU "probably stated 3-2 before the pitch" if that were so, the defense wouldn't think that there was a steal attempt, and the catcher would also be acting under the assumption that no play was to be made.
Didn't OP state the the defense was stating "that's only ball 3"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JEL
I sometimes feel a bit silly giving the same count over and over in those situations, but I have been "bit" by failing to do so!
On repeated fouling off situations, I'll repeat the count every other pitch.
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Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 06:53pm
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It seems to me that if we expect the defense to know tha count and attempt the put out at 2nd, then we should expect the offense to know she has successfully stolen a base and remain there on her own or with coach's instructions.
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Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 07:21pm
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You were right....put her back on 2nd.....
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 06:40am
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When there is any dead ball ruling, whether awarding bases or returning runners, the umpire should always announce the results. In this case, after the conference, I would expect the umpire to give direction to the runners to the coaches and runners, if for no other reason than to expedite the situation and move on with the game.
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 09:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
It seems to me that if we expect the defense to know tha count and attempt the put out at 2nd, then we should expect the offense to know she has successfully stolen a base and remain there on her own or with coach's instructions.
Yes, but what's your point. What are you saying should or should not have been done?
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 12:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
On repeated fouling off situations, I'll repeat the count every other pitch.
I developed the habit of saying "Count stays # and 2" so all of us know how many balls there are.
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 04:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
Yes, but what's your point. What are you saying should or should not have been done?
That those expressing an opinion on the case or proposing a ruling should consider what I said.
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Old Wed Oct 25, 2006, 09:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
That those expressing an opinion on the case or proposing a ruling should consider what I said.
I've read and reread what you said. I have no idea what you mean by it. If you are saying the offense has the onus of knowing not to go back to first, I would ask how you are letting her leave 2nd and head to 1st during a dead ball period? You wouldn't let her head to third, right? She can't go anywhere (fore or back) while the ball is dead. If I've misunderstood your point, please enlighten me.
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Old Thu Oct 26, 2006, 12:53pm
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Where does it say there would be a difference if the count was not announced? Would you do anything different in same situation on dropped second strike and B/R advances to 1B drawing a throw?
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Old Thu Oct 26, 2006, 02:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastpitch
Where does it say there would be a difference if the count was not announced??
There is no difference whether the count is announced or not. It is the responsibility of both benches to know the count, and for that matter all game situations, at all times. In the case of the OP, the runner who advanced to second did so at her own risk, and in jeopardy of being put out. The problem was, the defense wasn't aware of the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastpitch
Would you do anything different in same situation on dropped second strike and B/R advances to 1B drawing a throw?
Nope. The runner could legally advance, again in jeopardy of being thrown out, and the batter would come back to complete her turn at bat. Again, the onus is on both the offense and defense to know the game situation.
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Old Thu Oct 26, 2006, 04:55pm
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I agree that the coach should know. Now if he had asked the count and received the wrong one we have a different circumstance. I believe Steve's question relates to a finer point of professionalism and umpire mecahnics than where my question led.
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