BU - Modifying B or C depending on situation?

[wadeintothem]

I think most umpires just stand in standard B C based on the fact this is what I see. IMO, B or C is the worst ending position for a call. I.e. In many plays, these players are so fast that by the time the play developes, you are still in B or C making your call. I hate to be PU and see a bang bang play at 1b where I'm closer to the call at 1B than the BU hanging out behind the F6.

I'll give a few scenarios where I like to change position of B or C slightly - I'd like to know what you all think.

1. R1@3
Here I think C is much closer to 2nd and in. Why?
Your play is at 1B 90% of the time or POSSIBLY pick off at 3 or help at play with something involving the batter.
We all know what most likely will happen, Def is going to get the out at 1b (check 3 go 1 or with 2 outs just go 1) - but there could be a play at the plate or a run down.. so - a modified C cheating to 2B is better than C, because in just about every conceivable play, the standard C is the worst position with a runner on 3B.

If you are say 6' from 2b on the 3b side, your movement towards 1B gives you a great view of the play at 1b, your primary call in that scenario - from a much closer position than behind the SS.

You cannot move in for a bang bang at 1B, where you are at the start of the play +/- a few feet is where you will be when you make the call at 1B simply because you have 2.4 seconds or so, and thats it. Behind the shortstop in standard C middle, you might as well be a parent eating a hot dog behind the home run fence calling the game, your view is about just as good IMO.

2. Cheating based on players
Example:
I worked a mens tourney where nearly every other pitch or more with runner @ 1b the catcher would shoot down to 1st, and he was darn good at it. Play after play pick off attempts. I had to cheat towards 1 because it was just too many close plays, I knew this catcher was good, he got more than a few in that tourney and I knew he was going to try it. Do you cheat based on what you've learned throughout the game(s) the players will be doing? He would do the same with a R1 at 2b, he would shoot that ball down to 2b after the pitch. So I would cheat for the coming pickoff at 2b. Just an amazing arm, but the point is, if you see something going on with particular plays, will you start to cheat based on that?

3. Cheating towards 2b when you know the steal is coming - R1 @ 1b, BU in B

More common than the above when you are in B where the extreme skill of the catcher/f3 team caused me to cheat to 1B, I cheat towards 2b. Sometimes I dont have the best view of a pick off but its usually safe anyway or obviously out - the play thats coming is the steal at 2 or the double play, play at 2 or something of that sort. B or a cheated B are both bad positions for a pick off at 1B, so it doesnt really mater with that play.

I advocate the getting 90's on play as the best thing - the problem is, youre not going to get that from a standard B / C dictated by ASA. RARE is the umpire who can get a 90 from standard B or C on a steal or bang bang play. Those girls can out run 95% of us all.

On a double play, imo, the best position will be if you were cheating towards 2B and moved in to 2b then a 90 on 1B. So you would end about 4-5 back and towards the 1b line for the call at 1b.


If you want to be stopped and in proper position on a play you need to cheat based on experience and foresight of whats likely to happen so that by taking angles etc you can overcome the speed difference. Admittedly, in some cases, it may mess you up; however, I think the odds are in your favor in many more cases, ESPECIALLY the bang bang call at 1b when the BU is in C.

I think think straight C with runner @ 3B is the worst position ASA advocates.

What are your thoughts or what tricks and techniques have you learned to help you through the B/C positioning - or do you simply stay off in never neverland B C regardless of whats happening and make your calls (I know many do this because I work with them all the time).... and if so, why do you do that?

Personnally, I believe the ASA uses A B C as a training tool to cater to the lowest common denominator of umpire .. ie they know B & C is not best in many cases, but its easy to teach and remember given the wide variety of umpires taking the field.

[IRISHMAFIA]

ASA mechanics are based on training thousands across the nation, but I wouldn't define them as the lowest common denominator. Having proposed a mechanic change for the three-umpire system, I discovered that the positions A, B, C or D are not standardly used among the NUS.

Obviously, I don't believe the C is the greatest position, either. But I don't think it is the worst. I have no problem with the C shading the 3B side of the the SS if the player's positions permit it. The priority call is that at 3B, not 1B. Making a call from this position is not that bad. Yes, it looks bad on a banger, but that doesn't mean you didn't have a good angle and a correct call. I believe it is very possible for an umpire to lose a dimension from the area around 2B unless the throw is coming from the area of the 3B line.

An umpire who moves with the play toward 1B as taught can sell that call with little to no problem. What I don't like to see is the BU hovering over F5's shoulder with a runner on 3B only. That is too far toward the 3B line and gives the impression the field is lopsided with both umpires being near the 3B line.

The C position is no worse than a one-umpire game where the call at 1B must be made from foul territory when there is a runner on 3B.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA mechanics are based on training thousands across the nation, but I wouldn't define them as the lowest common denominator. Having proposed a mechanic change for the three-umpire system, I discovered that the positions A, B, C or D are not standardly used among the NUS.

Obviously, I don't believe the C is the greatest position, either. But I don't think it is the worst. I have no problem with the C shading the 3B side of the the SS if the player's positions permit it. The priority call is that at 3B, not 1B. Making a call from this position is not that bad.

I think thats the flawed opinion with R1@3b, if thats what you mean.

The priority is not R1@3b for BU, because thats not going to be the play in most cases.. the play will be @ 1b.

I would go so far as to say say with R1@3b, a better position than shading to 3b is even B. But C's fine, but you need to shade to 2B from C. You can easily get a 90 on a pick off but your call is 1B. There is hardly any conceivable play and certainly no taught plays (ie check 3 go 1) with that field position that is advantaged by BU shading 3b.

the only thing I can think of is a shorter jog to cover 3 if R1 is caught in a run down.. other than that .. what is the priority at 3b for BU?

1. Make sure they dont leave early
2. Call the pick off..

Thats it.

The rest of what happens involves 1b.

And there aint one blue clicking this thread who can do more than swivel and take a step in the <2.4 seconds it will take for the banger thats coming at 1.

Where you are at the pitch is where you will call the banger other than 1 movement.

If youre in the grass edge youre calling the banger from what? A country mile or thereabouts.

Im curious as to why you would even mention BU shading to 3b in any case other than R1@2b.

[Steve M]

Wade,
You are very wrong in at least one item - I'll get to that in a bit.

When you have a runner at 3rd, regardless of any other runners, that is your most critical runner. That is the runner that is most likely to try & score. That's where you position yourself to call. In a 2-man crew, with R1 at 3B, I am positioned about 20 ft from the LF line and am no deeper than 1-2 stepa behind F6.

Where you are absolutely wrong is in your statement that "And there aint one blue clicking this thread who can do more than swivel and take a step in the <2.4 seconds it will take for the banger thats coming at 1." I get a lot more than 1 step in that time. I am 52 yrs old and have only ever - that's EVER - had a runner outrun me, and that was due to a bad leg acting up that day. I work high school age and older - up through men's majors. And I am not the only umpire who keeps themselves able to move quickly.

I believe that a lot of what you spoke of regarding B position with R1 on 1B is accurate - let the players tell you where you need to be positioned. With a catcher who likes pick-off attempts, I am positioned 20 ft from the RF line and about 8 ft behind 1B. After the pitch, I take 1 step toward the RF line so that IF a pick-off is attempted, I have 1-2 more steps to take in order to have a great position and view. This is called "working between pitches". When the catcher is not inclined to try a pick-off or neither F3 or F4 makes any move to cover, I don't need to move and may actually move another stride or 2 toward 2B. And I am easily able to get to a 90-degree position for a call at 2B, if there is a steal.

What tricks have I learned over time?
1-Stay in shape
2-Know the game situation and know what you need to do IF...
3-Don't anticipate your calls, but be ready

My first item, above, is for all levels. The other items are a whole lot easier as the quality of play and skill levels advances. I doubt that this approach would work with younger players.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Wade,
You are very wrong in at least one item - I'll get to that in a bit.

When you have a runner at 3rd, regardless of any other runners, that is your most critical runner. That is the runner that is most likely to try & score. That's where you position yourself to call. In a 2-man crew, with R1 at 3B, I am positioned about 20 ft from the LF line and am no deeper than 1-2 stepa behind F6.

Where you are absolutely wrong is in your statement that "And there aint one blue clicking this thread who can do more than swivel and take a step in the <2.4 seconds it will take for the banger thats coming at 1." I get a lot more than 1 step in that time. I am 52 yrs old and have only ever - that's EVER - had a runner outrun me, and that was due to a bad leg acting up that day. I work high school age and older - up through men's majors. And I am not the only umpire who keeps themselves able to move quickly.

Since we agree on a lot.. lets discuss Wade's Modified C - ie 6-7 away from 2b on the 3b side diagonal with R1 @ 3b, no one else on.

First off, speed is not the issue. I can out run 95% of the umpires I work with I'm quite sure.

Second, the call is made from C by those who stay in C. Thats where its made, I see it over and over. A good 75' from the play.

Why?

Its not speed, its factors.

Before the pitch your responsiblity is making sure R1 doesnt leave early and a little eye on the pitcher for the illegal pitch. Even if you are moving during the "wind up" it must be minimum to accurately see this.

After the pitch, your responsibility for R1 is over for now. They are in fact not your priority.

Your priority is then at the plate, and again you should not be moving. You must be watching for check swings or a dead ball situation like the ball hitting the batter etc.

If the ball is not hit, your responsibility is then R1 because there is simply nothing else that can happen so with a step or two you can have a good 90 on a play at 3b from my spot.. whereas in C you are once again behind the play unless you are at a run and still moving... every pitch.... nope you arent doing that. You are standing there in C taking a few steps IMO.


If the ball is hit and again after watching for something "deadballish", your responsibility in 90% of the cases will be BR. PU has the play at home if it happens, not you. If the play developes there, you will naturally watch it, but you are not advantaged in watching this by hanging out behind SS sooo.. in any case:

You cant have moved very far by this point. Now you have a few seconds, and a slapper has a jump on you, even if you had blinding 4.5 speed on a 40, you couldnt have moved but a few feet if you maintained your other responsibilities.

So you, even as fast as you could possibly be (which frankly is probably not much) would be back there close to that fat BU who didnt move at all.. making the call 75' away from behind F6--

this because of the misguided belief your responsibility is R1, even though in practice, this belief is hardly ever proven to be relevent.. and even if it suddenly becomes important, youre still sitting behind the play behind F6. Whereas, I have moved in with only a few steps, similar to a littleball umpire and have a great 90 on 3B .. but more importantly, 15'-18' closer on the banger at 1b if that happens, which it probably will.

The importance of R1 is covered at home plate as long as she doesnt leave early.

R1 is NOT BU's responsibility once she reaches 3B. She then reverts to PU in practice and reality IMO.

Other than saying something like "ASA says R1 is the primary resposbility" .. how in practice is this reality?

What could possibly go on with R1@3B where you as the BU are advantaged by being in ASA C?

The answer.. IMO.. not much.

In fact, if you maintain that a call from 75-80' at 1B is just as good as calling it from 60'.. then you would be hard pressed to make an argument as to why B wouldnt be just as good for BU with R1 @ 3b.

What does it matter where you are.. 75' is 75'? Its all the same.

----------------------------------------
another peeve...


What about R1@3b and R2@1b.. pick off at 1b... its absurd for BU to call that.. but of course, thats what ASA advocates. Every umpire here knows they didnt get a good look at that.. admit it, you couldnt see it good. You know you didnt, coach knows you didnt, the players no you didnt.. but as you humbly signal safe.. we all know... and the PU knows when you blew it.. why? Because PU has the best view of that.

I think that too is indicitive of ABC being catering to the lowest common denominator of umpires as opposed to smart calling. They dont want to confuse a drooler umpire by mixing some runner responsiblity to PU.

Everyone but ASA knows that call is PU's in 2 man.... but nope.. like ya'll.. I am dutifully in straight C in this case as I should be because the view from Wades Modified B is terrible on a 1B pick off.. and making the call on a pick off 75' away without angle..

This situation is not something I can adjust myself because its not taught so a BU would look at you like youre crazy, so for that one...

Mike you need to fix this stuff man

Anyway, I think this requires some outside the box to realize that SOME of the problems encountered by a BU can be solved if you stop confining yourselves to the rigid guidelines for BU dictated by ASA and cheat a little depending on situation and some thought as to what your real responsibilities are in practice, as opposed to theory.

[CecilOne]

If we are going to discuss positioning, can we use some common nomenclature to reduce the reading time and misreading:
A = outside 1st base line
B = between 1st and 2nd (B1 or B2, left or right of F4)
C = between 2nd and 3rd (C1 or C2, left or right of F6)
D = outside 3rd base line
C3 = occasionally for inside 3rd base line, right of F6 and F7

I agree with and in fact preach adjusting position to various situations, especially the number of outs, getting the best look at pickoffs, where the fielders are, etc. Not necessarily everything suggested in this topic, but certainly the concept, remembering that angle is more important than distance.
1) The pickoff at 1st requires a closer look than the steal at 2nd.
2) I can read the runner at 1st quickly enough to use my headstart getting a good angle at 2nd.
3) With 2 outs, closer to 1st, again determined by where F6 is.
4) With runner at 3rd, closer to basepath to get pickoff angle.
5) Always moving toward the play, partly for better look, partly for selling.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Since we agree on a lot.. lets discuss Wade's Modified C - ie 6-7 away from 2b on the 3b side diagonal with R1 @ 3b, no one else on.

First off, speed is not the issue. I can out run 95% of the umpires I work with I'm quite sure.

Second, the call is made from C by those who stay in C. Thats where its made, I see it over and over. A good 75' from the play.

That's not bad mechanics, that's poor umpiring. BTW, what is diagonal to a runner mean?

Its not speed, its factors.

Before the pitch your responsiblity is making sure R1 doesnt leave early and a little eye on the pitcher for the illegal pitch. Even if you are moving during the "wind up" it must be minimum to accurately see this.

After the pitch, your responsibility for R1 is over for now. They are in fact not your priority.

Your priority is then at the plate, and again you should not be moving. You must be watching for check swings or a dead ball situation like the ball hitting the batter etc.

If the ball is not hit, your responsibility is then R1 because there is simply nothing else that can happen so with a step or two you can have a good 90 on a play at 3b from my spot.. whereas in C you are once again behind the play unless you are at a run and still moving... every pitch.... nope you arent doing that. You are standing there in C taking a few steps IMO.

If the ball is hit and again after watching for something "deadballish", your responsibility in 90% of the cases will be BR. PU has the play at home if it happens, not you. If the play developes there, you will naturally watch it, but you are not advantaged in watching this by hanging out behind SS sooo.. in any case:

You cant have moved very far by this point. Now you have a few seconds, and a slapper has a jump on you, even if you had blinding 4.5 speed on a 40, you couldnt have moved but a few feet if you maintained your other responsibilities.

So you, even as fast as you could possibly be (which frankly is probably not much) would be back there close to that fat BU who didnt move at all.. making the call 75' away from behind F6--

You are correct that speed is not a factor. However, hustle is and we all know that hustle and speed are not the same thing. I can't out run anyone, but I will always get to where I need to be to make the call. An umpire in the C has more issues than how fast the BR may be. To start, the movement of the closest infielder partially dictates the BU's path toward a play. And, as we all know, just because we know how the play should develop, that doesn't mean the players always move properly.[/quote]

this because of the misguided belief your responsibility is R1, even though in practice, this belief is hardly ever proven to be relevent.. and even if it suddenly becomes important, youre still sitting behind the play behind F6. Whereas, I have moved in with only a few steps, similar to a littleball umpire and have a great 90 on 3B .. but more importantly, 15'-18' closer on the banger at 1b if that happens, which it probably will.[/quote]

Okay, you have a 90, so what? Any smart runner is coming from the foul side and you will not have any more an idea of whether her hand is on the bag than the umpire in the regular C and you are going to be farther away. BTW, it is my belief that, as stated in a previous post, the closer you are to 2B, the more of an angle you lose at 1B on a throw from anywhere other than the 3B line.

The importance of R1 is covered at home plate as long as she doesnt leave early.

R1 is NOT BU's responsibility once she reaches 3B. She then reverts to PU in practice and reality IMO.

Other than saying something like "ASA says R1 is the primary resposbility" .. how in practice is this reality?

What could possibly go on with R1@3B where you as the BU are advantaged by being in ASA C?

On a ground ball to the infield, who has the call if the throw goes to 3B? I believe that would be the BU. On any pick-off play? BU. On any rundown situation? BU.

I don't believe your set up is any more advantageous than the prescribed mechanic.

In fact, if you maintain that a call from 75-80' at 1B is just as good as calling it from 60'.. then you would be hard pressed to make an argument as to why B wouldnt be just as good for BU with R1 @ 3b.

What does it matter where you are.. 75' is 75'? Its all the same.

I think you are taking some serious liberties with your distances or assuming that umpires don't move quick enough. I've seen Steve M work and he's seen a couple of the umpires from may area and they are all good. And they are never as far as you are insinuating from any call for which they are responsible.

----------------------------------------
another peeve...


What about R1@3b and R2@1b.. pick off at 1b... its absurd for BU to call that.. but of course, thats what ASA advocates. Every umpire here knows they didnt get a good look at that.. admit it, you couldnt see it good. You know you didnt, coach knows you didnt, the players no you didnt.. but as you humbly signal safe.. we all know... and the PU knows when you blew it.. why? Because PU has the best view of that.

I think that too is indicitive of ABC being catering to the lowest common denominator of umpires as opposed to smart calling. They dont want to confuse a drooler umpire by mixing some runner responsiblity to PU.

Everyone but ASA knows that call is PU's in 2 man.... but nope.. like ya'll.. I am dutifully in straight C in this case as I should be because the view from Wades Modified B is terrible on a 1B pick off.. and making the call on a pick off 75' away without angle..

This situation is not something I can adjust myself because its not taught so a BU would look at you like youre crazy, so for that one...

Mike you need to fix this stuff man

Anyway, I think this requires some outside the box to realize that SOME of the problems encountered by a BU can be solved if you stop confining yourselves to the rigid guidelines for BU dictated by ASA and cheat a little depending on situation and some thought as to what your real responsibilities are in practice, as opposed to theory.

What is the obsession with umpires and degrees? I don't care if you are at 90, 45 or whatever, if it isn't the proper position to see the call, it is irrelevant. We all know that most plays do not happen at the angle perfect for the umpire to see, so we move as much as possible when necessary whether it is the entire body or just the head.

Thinking outside of the box isn't necessary to understand that ASA mechanics are quidelines and there shouldn't be an issues with slight modifications as needed. I think it is obvious that umpires must adjust to every situation on every play of every game. I don't believe the ASA staff thinks that you can lay a template over the field and every umpire must fall into the proper place.

Every umpire also knows that there is no perfect set of mechanics that will cover all the possible plays all the time, not even in a four-umpire game. So we have to use the best possible option and adjust from there.

You are also correct that the standard mechanic may not always be the best for 90-99% of the plays we see. However, it's when the 1-10% of the plays occur and the umpire isn't in the proper position that is the most noticable and important.

While we are on mechanics, at a regional UIC meeting, the subject of ASA mechanics was raised by a UIC who just worked the Hooters in OKC. The issue was standard mechanics and how mechanics from other organizations are sneaking into the ASA game. Apparently, the NUS has taken notice to the point it may be addressed. When the subject was raised, another member of this board was in the room and we immediately looked toward each other. He thought this is why I addressed this issue earlier, but in actuality, my post was completely independent of what this umpire brought to the meeting.

So, it will be quite interesting to see if, and how, this subject may be approached at the Biennial UIC Clinic.

[wadeintothem]

Hey mike, thanks for the response.

the closer you are to 2B, the more of an angle you lose at 1B on a throw from anywhere other than the 3B line.

I dont think this is supportable or accurate.

On a ground ball to the infield, who has the call if the throw goes to 3B? I believe that would be the BU. On any pick-off play? BU. On any rundown situation? BU.

I already conceded that a run down situation is the only situation advantaged by ASA C in my original post, the reason is simply because it's closer than where I think you should be positioned at the pitch.

As you pointed out though, ASA (and in fact each of us) must use our best judgement because we cant cover every situation - to give us the best coverage we can.

If i was to sit and break down what we know could happen at 3, it'd just be another long post.. if they throw to 3, if they throw home who runs them back to 3 etc.. a little hustle will over come that situation, whereas, in most cases the play is at 1.

The out at 1 is extremely important, especially if the def is willing to possibly give up or at least rist the run to get that out. This is where I differ with those that believe BU's priority is R1 when it is in fact BR.

I think you are taking some serious liberties with your distances or assuming that umpires don't move quick enough. I've seen Steve M work and he's seen a couple of the umpires from may area and they are all good. And they are never as far as you are insinuating from any call for which they are responsible.

From C on a banger at 1 they are behind F6. I've never taped it off, but thats 70' Mike +/- and thats definately where the BU's are. The may be in a little if infield is in, but they are there - hustle or no hustle for reasons I already described, that actually have nothing to do with speed or hustle.

YOU CANT move very far before that play developes, its impossible.

What is the obsession with umpires and degrees? I don't care if you are at 90, 45 or whatever...

I think its not an obsession, but rather a training of the mind to try and get the best position for most situations. 45 is plenty good in many cases too.

I don't believe the ASA staff thinks that you can lay a template over the field and every umpire must fall into the proper place.

Oh I do, especially when an umpire is being evaluated, etc.

You are also correct that the standard mechanic may not always be the best for 90-99% of the plays we see. However, it's when the 1-10% of the plays occur and the umpire isn't in the proper position that is the most noticable and important.

This was more my point.

I dont agree that the 10% are the most important. I believe 90% is most important and "good enough" be used on the 10%; with consideration towards the fact in most games theres 4 eyeballs out there and thats it.

The play in R1@3b is check 3 go 1 at least 85%.. theres no doubt they go 3B 15%, it definately happens. So I believe in setting up for the 1B play and adjusting for the 3B play.. not only do you have PU already covering 1/2 of what play could develop, you have a good angle for a 3B play and enough variotions that it wittles it down to null.

So, it will be quite interesting to see if, and how, this subject may be approached at the Biennial UIC Clinic.

I'm sure mechanics will continually be talked about and revised.

The thing is, the positioning set by ASA are more rigid than a mere guideline mike. They are in fact law of the land and a template of positioning at the pitch, despite the fact you say otherwise.

It's whats taught, its how its called, and how its expected to be done and evaluated.

When I say "outside the box", I'm talking about adjusting from those rigid guidelines set by ASA for best coverage in a deficient coverage scheme (2 man) to begin with, based on game situations as they present themselves... and ASA expressing in some manner that this is acceptable.

Maybe what seperates us on this board from the rest is our willingness to adjust and cheat and hustle..

But the fact is, A B C positioning is uniform as can be.. and the vast majority of umpires maintain that position prepitch regardless of game situation even if disadvantageous, and thats because of ASA Policy, Training, and Evaluating that demands it.

[Steve M]

I gues I'm not getting enough credit for moving.

"From C on a banger at 1 they are behind F6. I've never taped it off, but thats 70' Mike +/- and thats definately where the BU's are. The may be in a little if infield is in, but they are there - hustle or no hustle for reasons I already described, that actually have nothing to do with speed or hustle.

YOU CANT move very far before that play developes, its impossible."

It is possible. I'll watch the batted ball & play, when I am in the C position, I will almost always be stopped & set near the circle when F3 catches the throw. Let me say again that my starting position has me no more than 2 feet behind the fielder, depthwise. In some cases, with R1 on 3B, I am not as deep as F6. I am still considered behind the infielders by drawing an imaginary line from F5 to F6 and I am behind that line.

Mechanics get adjusted, all the time. They get adjusted because somebody noticed a need, the top level folks analyzed as many pluses and minuses as they could come up with and so on. The two best things I see with standard mechanics are:
1-I can work with anyone, anywhere. With a good pre-game meeting, we all know where everyone is going to be.
2-Standards exist for a reason, folks have analyzed and come up with a consistent way to address the needs.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Steve M

I gues I'm not getting enough credit for moving.

"From C on a banger at 1 they are behind F6. I've never taped it off, but thats 70' Mike +/- and thats definately where the BU's are. The may be in a little if infield is in, but they are there - hustle or no hustle for reasons I already described, that actually have nothing to do with speed or hustle.

YOU CANT move very far before that play developes, its impossible."

It is possible. I'll watch the batted ball & play, when I am in the C position, I will almost always be stopped & set near the circle when F3 catches the throw. Let me say again that my starting position has me no more than 2 feet behind the fielder, depthwise. In some cases, with R1 on 3B, I am not as deep as F6. I am still considered behind the infielders by drawing an imaginary line from F5 to F6 and I am behind that line.

Mechanics get adjusted, all the time. They get adjusted because somebody noticed a need, the top level folks analyzed as many pluses and minuses as they could come up with and so on. The two best things I see with standard mechanics are:
1-I can work with anyone, anywhere. With a good pre-game meeting, we all know where everyone is going to be.
2-Standards exist for a reason, folks have analyzed and come up with a consistent way to address the needs.

20+ feet in 2.4 seconds including watching where the play is developing and a DB situation at HP and setting for the play at 1B is the exception and not the rule - good job.

For the rest of the mortal BU's I work with, they call it standing in C +/- a little, and thats what I was addressing.

Mechanics get adjusted, all the time. They get adjusted because somebody noticed a need, the top level folks analyzed as many pluses and minuses as they could come up with and so on. The two best things I see with standard mechanics are:
1-I can work with anyone, anywhere. With a good pre-game meeting, we all know where everyone is going to be.
2-Standards exist for a reason, folks have analyzed and come up with a consistent way to address the needs.

This point is well taken and I recognize that is a need within the Organization that must be considered.

[wadeintothem]

wades modified C only for R1@3B






Regular C for many other C scenarios.




Copyright 2006, Wadeintothem Ump Inc

[IRISHMAFIA]

the closer you are to 2B, the more of an angle you lose at 1B on a throw from anywhere other than the 3B line.


I dont think this is supportable or accurate.

Sure it is. If the throw is coming from F4 near the base line or F6 shaded toward 2B, it is most likely F3 will stretch toward your general direction. That is a dimension lost compared to a throw from the 3B line area. Even if you step toward the play inside the diamond, you will still have the same angle and can easily loose any view of F3 touching the base.

Of course, this can happen on any play regardless of the BU's position, but most good umpires I know move toward 1B at an angle which will give them the best view, not necessarily the closest.

The out at 1 is extremely important, especially if the def is willing to possibly give up or at least rist the run to get that out. This is where I differ with those that believe BU's priority is R1 when it is in fact BR.

The BR must still advance three more bases to affect the score whereas a runner on 3B needs, but a single base to have the same affect. As Steve noted, the play and runner at 3B is much more critical and an error on behalf of the umpire can have an instantaneous and direct affect on the game, much more than an error on a call at 1B. This is covered during schools and clinics.

What is the obsession with umpires and degrees? I don't care if you are at 90, 45 or whatever...

I think its not an obsession, but rather a training of the mind to try and get the best position for most situations. 45 is plenty good in many cases too.

From another game maybe. The only time I've heard anything close to a "degree" mentioned is moving into fair territory at 1B to an imaginary line running across the base, corner to corner. Of course, this is basically a 45, but even that angle has been questioned. Maybe some people just think it is easier to use a measure of "degrees", but I think some people place way too much emphasis on these numbers.

I dont agree that the 10% are the most important.

Didn't say that. I said the mechanics are based to allow the best coverage available given non-specific scenarios.

The thing is, the positioning set by ASA are more rigid than a mere guideline mike. They are in fact law of the land and a template of positioning at the pitch, despite the fact you say otherwise.

It's whats taught, its how its called, and how its expected to be done and evaluated.

If that were so, many would never see a national tournament, let alone anything at the Elite level.

When I say "outside the box", I'm talking about adjusting from those rigid guidelines set by ASA for best coverage in a deficient coverage scheme (2 man) to begin with, based on game situations as they present themselves... and ASA expressing in some manner that this is acceptable.

A good umpire will do that and not lose anything on the evaluation. The idea is to cover the plays and everyone, from the top down, know that deviation is not only a necessary part of an umpire's game, but quite acceptable as long as the crew is on the same page and all plays are covered. I don't know how many times I've heard "if you deviate, communicate". That's a long way from "these are the mechanics, obey them."

I will not say that there are not some people of higher position in certain areas that may be anal (and trust me, I know anal ) approach toward the mechanics. Sometimes, that is not bad depending on the level of experience of the umpire.

Maybe what seperates us on this board from the rest is our willingness to adjust and cheat and hustle..

But the fact is, A B C positioning is uniform as can be.. and the vast majority of umpires maintain that position prepitch regardless of game situation even if disadvantageous, and thats because of ASA Policy, Training, and Evaluating that demands it.

And that is just plain bad/lazy officiating, not how I've seen mechanics taught or have taught the mechanics, by policy or otherwise. Again, if the evaluations were based on the "fact" you suggest, many with advanced experience would routinely receive poor evaluations.

I don't think we disagree that much on anything except your perception of how ASA addresses the mechanics. You may have run into some people who have tunnel vision as it concerns this matter, but I don't think ASA, in general, has such a rigid view of the mechanics as you believe. BTW, please note that I'm referring to mechanics involving an actual play or possibility of a play. The pre-pitch mechanics (general vicinity of starting positions, no longer walking the line, closeness of a BU to the base/nearest defensive player, etc.) are, in my opinion, pretty good in theory and deviating from these are an evaluation issue.

Like it or not, whether the game you agreed to officiate is sanctioned by ASA, U-trip, NSA, AFA, USFA, NCAA, NJCAA, NAIA, NFHS, LL, ISA, ISC, etc, you are being paid to represent that respective organization and should be more than willing to adapt to each's prescribed mechanics.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Sure it is. If the throw is coming from F4 near the base line or F6 shaded toward 2B, it is most likely F3 will stretch toward your general direction. That is a dimension lost compared to a throw from the 3B line area. Even if you step toward the play inside the diamond, you will still have the same angle and can easily loose any view of F3 touching the base.

C in just about ANY case is never ideal or even good or adequate for detecting slight pulled foot and I think any good umpire would be willing to check with PU on that.. so I'd put pulled foot from C in the category of something a BU should be willing to discuss with his partner if requested by the coach; benefit of the doubt at the time of the call given to the foot touching the base.

The BR must still advance three more bases to affect the score whereas a runner on 3B needs, but a single base to have the same affect. As Steve noted, the play and runner at 3B is much more critical and an error on behalf of the umpire can have an instantaneous and direct affect on the game, much more than an error on a call at 1B. This is covered during schools and clinics.

Of course, but the importance of that rests with PU, i.e. a score - and theres no problem calling @ 3B from a modified position which favors the BR call. I have good hustle and can be there for the play easily, steve could probably beat a diving runner back to the base from there.

From another game maybe. The only time I've heard anything close to a "degree" mentioned is moving into fair territory at 1B to an imaginary line running across the base, corner to corner.

Around here its discussed quite a bit by those who do NCAA and I think thats where I get it from. I'm too far from civilization to do NCAA but the guys who teach the ASA clinics all do NCAA and they use it quite a bit. It may not be discussed in those terms as much back where you are.

I will not say that there are not some people of higher position in certain areas that may be anal (and trust me, I know anal ) approach toward the mechanics. Sometimes, that is not bad depending on the level of experience of the umpire.

Thats what I meant by catering to the lowest common denominator of umpire. Probably from the upper mgmt standpoint, that really isnt a bad idea..

Like it or not, whether the game you agreed to officiate is sanctioned by ASA, U-trip, NSA, AFA, USFA, NCAA, NJCAA, NAIA, NFHS, LL, ISA, ISC, etc, you are being paid to represent that respective organization and should be more than willing to adapt to each's prescribed mechanics.

I agree with this certainly (a pet peeve of mine is little ball umps calling the softball strikes pointing with their finger), but as everyone has noted, mechanics are ever changing.. change is based on ideas, testing, and discussion and thats all I'm doing. If there was no change we'd all be wearing top hats and calling little ball with pillows strapped to our arm. Not that I think I would ever be a catalyst for change in mechanics.. basically just blowing hot cyber air into cyber space.

This issue is a little deal, but what else we got to do? No games til next weekend

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

If there was no change we'd all be wearing top hats and calling little ball with pillows strapped to our arm.

No top hat, but I started with the balloon and really didn't have any problem with it. For that matter, it offers the maximum protection for an umpire.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No top hat, but I started with the balloon and really didn't have any problem with it. For that matter, it offers the maximum protection for an umpire.

Ya know, if it wasn't for the image that we umpires all seem to have, I'd use a balloon on those extremely hot & humid plate games.