Catchers and the strike zone (FP)

[debeau]

fOOD FOR THOUGHT
Batters right at back of box and ball is pitched and comes through zone over plate all of ball just above knee but by the time it gets to the batter it has dropped to below the knee
Either a slower pitcher or a drop ball
Catcher is well back and catches ball up of the ground .
A genuine strike that only you know or survival and call it a ball because the defense and offense and spectators think its a ball .

[mick]

Originally Posted by debeau

fOOD FOR THOUGHT
Batters right at back of box and ball is pitched and comes through zone over plate all of ball just above knee but by the time it gets to the batter it has dropped to below the knee
Either a slower pitcher or a drop ball
Catcher is well back and catches ball up of the ground .
A genuine strike that only you know or survival and call it a ball because the defense and offense and spectators think its a ball .

...And ?
...Still sounded like a strike.

[wadeintothem]

I watch it all the way to the catcher.. there are some actions of a catcher that can cause me to lean towards/call a ball..

first off, its kinda embarrassing to call a marginal strike and see the ball go rolling away from the catcher, so I dont like to do it - and I've been known to answer "what was wrong with that one blue" with "it wasnt even catchable" when going ahead and calling a ball when I probably would have called a strike if caught.. or if I do call the strike - telling the catcher, "you know you make me look bad if you dont catch that one". "sorry blue!"

Moving the ball into the strike zone, well.. that means the catcher thought it was a ball and me too then.

those are a few of my thoughts.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

I watch it all the way to the catcher.. there are some actions of a catcher that can cause me to lean towards/call a ball..

first off, its kinda embarrassing to call a marginal strike and see the ball go rolling away from the catcher, so I dont like to do it - and I've been known to answer "what was wrong with that one blue" with "it wasnt even catchable" when going ahead and calling a ball when I probably would have called a strike if caught.. or if I do call the strike - telling the catcher, "you know you make me look bad if you dont catch that one". "sorry blue!"

Moving the ball into the strike zone, well.. that means the catcher thought it was a ball and me too then.

those are a few of my thoughts.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the catcher's mitt/skill wording in the strike zone definition.

[debeau]

You are on my track Wadeintothem .
Not to be rude or arrogant but it does depend on the level of play .
I Umpire top level mens games week in week out .
These are players who represent there countries in World Series .
For me to call strikes on marginal balls that get dropped or balls picked up off the ground I just wouldnt survive .
Now the way I call them I get no grief and havent for some years .

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Oh yeah, I forgot about the catcher's mitt/skill wording in the strike zone definition.

Hey, that reminds me, when a pitcher rolls her eyes my strike zone might change a little too. Man you eye roller types are irratating lol. But i'm sure you look great in sliding shorts and braids.

[DaveASA/FED]

I agree with wadeintothem, at least at the higher levels the catcher does make a difference. It is a matter of survival if she catches it, more will beleive it a strike. With a good catcher you mention something like "man if you catch that I can get away with calling it a strike" now some will say that is giving the catcher a feeling that your zone is weak or you are guessing. I say that is having a good conversation with your best friend during the game. A good catcher will adjust and either bring up the pitch a little or she will make darn sure she catches the next one. I know technically that is not in the rules, so Cecil is technically correct, but if you have this small conversation early it makes thing much easier on everyone! And we are talking about 2 maybe 3 pitches a game....if the pitcher is smart she adjusts a little bit to my zone, out of 180 that we call (average of 89.6 pitches per game in college according to a study I read, so it is probably more in HS and youth) if you are 99% accurate you miss a couple a game!

Also the outside pitch, if the catcher moves her mitt I am going to have a talk with her, just her and I will know we talked, something like, "wow that was on the corner, but you know how bad it looks when I call that after you jerked your mitt inside? hold it still and I will bang that all day long" Again 1 or 2 pitches on a team(pitch and catch) that know what they are doing is all it takes. I notice it on girls that have a good curve, start inside and grows outside, if you call the plate (which I try to do ) by the time the ball gets to the catcher it might be a foot outside (still a strike....Ok maybe not ) if she holds, even though she caught it outside I know where it crossed the plate, and I will take the heat over her catching it outside vs her moving the mitt to "trick" me. Again maybe there aren't rules to support me, but on a pitch that close my judgement put it out of the zone if they move, or drop it and into the zone if they don't!

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

I agree with wadeintothem, at least at the higher levels the catcher does make a difference. It is a matter of survival if she catches it, more will beleive it a strike. With a good catcher you mention something like "man if you catch that I can get away with calling it a strike" now some will say that is giving the catcher a feeling that your zone is weak or you are guessing. I say that is having a good conversation with your best friend during the game. A good catcher will adjust and either bring up the pitch a little or she will make darn sure she catches the next one. I know technically that is not in the rules, so Cecil is technically correct, but if you have this small conversation early it makes thing much easier on everyone! And we are talking about 2 maybe 3 pitches a game....if the pitcher is smart she adjusts a little bit to my zone, out of 180 that we call (average of 89.6 pitches per game in college according to a study I read, so it is probably more in HS and youth) if you are 99% accurate you miss a couple a game!

Also the outside pitch, if the catcher moves her mitt I am going to have a talk with her, just her and I will know we talked, something like, "wow that was on the corner, but you know how bad it looks when I call that after you jerked your mitt inside? hold it still and I will bang that all day long" Again 1 or 2 pitches on a team(pitch and catch) that know what they are doing is all it takes. I notice it on girls that have a good curve, start inside and grows outside, if you call the plate (which I try to do ) by the time the ball gets to the catcher it might be a foot outside (still a strike....Ok maybe not ) if she holds, even though she caught it outside I know where it crossed the plate, and I will take the heat over her catching it outside vs her moving the mitt to "trick" me. Again maybe there aren't rules to support me, but on a pitch that close my judgement put it out of the zone if they move, or drop it and into the zone if they don't!

Thank you - thats exactly what I am talking about.

I want the catchers mindset to be - catch the ball, and Im not saying I dont call some that the catcher misses - Im saying it looks bad to call some marginal thing that the catcher couldnt keep a hold of.

Ring up a batter called X3 and the ball is a tad somewhere or the other and the catcher scurries off to retrieve the ball. that just looks bad.

As to a by the book strike zone, hell thats not even taught at clinics nor called by just about anyone above 10U- heck even the POE for strike zone doesnt discuss a by the rule strike zone - so I dont want to hear that at all and its bogus. I pitty the umpire that calls a mens fast pitch and rings up some guy on a pitch that screams acrossed the top of the armpits.. no one calls that, except cecil.

Strike zone is a guide line, then there are survivability techinques and things that make you credible as an umpire.