What's the final score?

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

Softball Canada says the game is over when the winning run scores. You may let all the runners touch home plate, but the score is still 6-5. Or are one of those umpires who makes his own rules?

Bob

I'm still curious to know what would happen if the BR missed first base and it were properly appealed?

[John Robertson]

Here's what Softball Canada says. (You'll see why it's somewhat open to interpretation.)

Section 5-5: The winner of the game shall be the team that scores more runs in a regulation game.

Section 5-3: A regulation game shall consist of seven innings.

Section 5-3 (a): A full seven innings need not be played if the team second at bat scores more runs in six innings or before the third out in the last of the seventh inning.

In my opinion, one could take a hard-line interpretation of Rule 5-3 (a) and declare the game over the moment the winning run crosses the plate (assuming no appeals, of course). However, the phrase "need not" can be looked upon as very flexible. It is certainly not as rigid as "shall not." Thus you could argue that all the runs should score on a walkoff homer.

Whatever the case, this seems to be a very vague area in Canada. Everyone I know interprets the rule as it seems to be interpreted in the USA: All runs score on a walkoff homer while only the winning run scores on any other type of game-ending play.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by John Robertson

Here's what Softball Canada says. (You'll see why it's somewhat open to interpretation.)

Section 5-5: The winner of the game shall be the team that scores more runs in a regulation game.

Section 5-3: A regulation game shall consist of seven innings.

Section 5-3 (a): A full seven innings need not be played if the team second at bat scores more runs in six innings or before the third out in the last of the seventh inning.

In my opinion, one could take a hard-line interpretation of Rule 5-3 (a) and declare the game over the moment the winning run crosses the plate (assuming no appeals, of course). However, the phrase "need not" can be looked upon as very flexible. It is certainly not as rigid as "shall not." Thus you could argue that all the runs should score on a walkoff homer.

Whatever the case, this seems to be a very vague area in Canada. Everyone I know interprets the rule as it seems to be interpreted in the USA: All runs score on a walkoff homer while only the winning run scores on any other type of game-ending play.

That is very similar to the verbiage found in most "Canada South" rulebooks (both baseball and softball). I find NO reason, with just these rules, to make the interpretation that your ruleset tells you the OP is a 6-5 final score. You say you "could argue that all runs should score on a walkoff homer". I would say that is not only understatement, but that one would be on the difficult side of the argument saying that the rules you posted mean that only 1 run would score on a walkoff homer. I see no justification for this (and I believe BZ owes me an apology! )

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

I'm still curious to know what would happen if the BR missed first base and it were properly appealed?

What are you curious about, Larry - the answer to this is pretty straightforward, depending on how many outs there are.

[John Robertson]

Hmm, mcrowder. I think it is interesting that you absolutely read this as allowing all the runs to score. I still think it's a grey area, but I'm a stickler for details.

The baseball rule book does a much better job of clarifying the walkoff home run than the softball rulebook. (It says the game ends on a walkoff homer when the batter-runner touches home plate.)

Just to play devil's advocate, let's amend the situation: Score tied 5-5 in the bottom of the seventh. Two runners on base. Batter hits the ball over the left fielder's head but it stays in the ballpark. The left fielder knows his team has lost the game and doesn't bother to chase the ball. Both runners on base and the batter-runner all circle the bases for the heck of it. If you were to liberally interpret the "full seven innings NEED NOT be played" aspect of the rule I mentioned, one could argue that all three runs should score on this play. Now, I don't think a typical umpire or scorekeeper would actually count these runs, but you can see how the vagueness might create some doubt.

Personally, I'd like to see all doubt removed by having SOftball Canada rules specifically address the "walkoff home run" scenario.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by John Robertson

The baseball rule book does a much better job of clarifying the walkoff home run than the softball rulebook. (It says the game ends on a walkoff homer when the batter-runner touches home plate.)

Not to be nitpicky... but I don't see that phrase in either of my books.

[Bluefoot]

Since the game was in Canada, that makes the final score:

eh-eight to five-eh...

[John Robertson]

A rule book approved by Major League Baseball says this about walkoff home runs.

Rule 4.11 (c): "If the home team scores the winning run in its half of the ninth inning (or its half of an extra innng after a tie), the game ends immediately when the winning run is scored. EXCEPTION: If the last batter in the game hits a home run out of the playing field, the batter-runner and all runners on base are permitted to score, in accordance with the base-running rules, and the game ends when the batter-runner touches home plate."

Why can't softball rules be as crystal clear as this?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by John Robertson

A rule book approved by Major League Baseball says this about walkoff home runs.

Rule 4.11 (c): "If the home team scores the winning run in its half of the ninth inning (or its half of an extra innng after a tie), the game ends immediately when the winning run is scored. EXCEPTION: If the last batter in the game hits a home run out of the playing field, the batter-runner and all runners on base are permitted to score, in accordance with the base-running rules, and the game ends when the batter-runner touches home plate."

Why can't softball rules be as crystal clear as this?

Who says it isn't? A home run is a home run. It entitles all runners, including the batter runner to score without liability to be put out save a valid, properly presented appeal. It doesn't make any difference if it's the first play of the game or the last, the same rules apply.

I think you are looking for something that has no need to exist.

BTW, softball board. MLB has no standing here.

[Alaska Ump]

Originally Posted by John Robertson

Why can't softball rules be as crystal clear as this?

The difference between the MLB rule you quoted and the ASA rule I quoted makes the ASA rule unclear in which way? You can't seriously wonder if the batter gets to score, too?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by John Robertson

A rule book approved by Major League Baseball says this about walkoff home runs.

Rule 4.11 (c): "If the home team scores the winning run in its half of the ninth inning (or its half of an extra innng after a tie), the game ends immediately when the winning run is scored. EXCEPTION: If the last batter in the game hits a home run out of the playing field, the batter-runner and all runners on base are permitted to score, in accordance with the base-running rules, and the game ends when the batter-runner touches home plate."

Why can't softball rules be as crystal clear as this?

Because it's unnecessary. This whole rule is pointless, as it didn't need to be spelled out.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

What are you curious about, Larry - the answer to this is pretty straightforward, depending on how many outs there are.

We meet again! LOL

If the game ends in Canada when the winning run scores as was stated, what happens if in the OP the BR misses a base with 2 out, but the winning run touches the plate first?

[John Robertson]

If the batter runner missed first and was put on on an appeal, no runs would score. The game is still tied 5-5. If he missed any other base and was put on on appeal, the timing play comes into effect. Since it's no longer a walkoff home run, I'd say only one run scores and the final score is 6-5.

(This is somewhat similar to what happened in the famous Harvey Haddix near no-hitter in 1959 when Hank Aaron had a brain cramp and abandoned the basepath.)

[canump]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

We meet again! LOL

If the game ends in Canada when the winning run scores as was stated, what happens if in the OP the BR misses a base with 2 out, but the winning run touches the plate first?

Simple logic. If the BR missed 1st base with two out then no runs score period.
If the BR missed 2nd or 3rd or home plate, it then becomes a timing play and if the winning run had already crossed the plate then game over.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Why would an umpire care what the score is?