What to do when a coach just does not know a rule and insists that you are wrong?

[BuggBob]

Runner on first, no outs, 1-1 count, the pitch is a foul tip, runner steals second, coach tells her to go back, she goes about half way and stops continues on to first and stops. I call Look Back Rule and the runner is out. Coach tells me that on a foul tip the ball is dead, I tell him no the ball is live that I had read that in the rule book, he tells me I need to read it again as the ball is dead. Now the coach is not yelling or screaming and is in fact very nice, but he wont believe me when I tell him a rule or a ruling.

Later in the game his runner who was obstructed at third creams the obstructing third baseman. I tell him the rule covering obstruction does not allow for his runner to run into the baseperson. He tells me that it does and the if the runner is interfered with blah, blah blah. Later in the game the same thing happens again and he now insist that I call interference, I asked him if he wants me to call his runner out, no I want interference.

Also in the game with runners on base, his batter is hit by a slow rolling ball (slipped from the pitchers hand). As the batter made absolutely no attempt to get out of the way I ruled dead ball, ball, batter continues the at bat. Because of the dead ball runners return to base at the time of pitch. No no no he tells me the batter gets first, she did not attempt to get out of the way she stays here and continues the at bat, he then tells me you're wrong.

The whole game went this way. Taken by themselves each little conversation would not even be notable, but the overall tone of the game changed to the point that his parents started getting on my case for not knowing the rules. The last straw came on a pitch that hit about 10 feet in front the plate and the batter stuck at, I call strike. This time he goes a little more nuts, telling me the ball is dead when it hits the ground that far in front of the plate. No sir the ball is live. One more time he tells me I am wrong. So I banned him to the bench. I know that ASA does not have a banned to the bench protocol, but this guy sure didn't know that. He would not believe me on all the real rules, but the one rule that I invented he believed.

This is the topper of all toppers: I was in the can between games and this guy comes up to me and wants to shake my hand to show there were no hard feelings.

Bugg

[CecilOne]

1) grin and bear it or ask him if he wants to protest (if you can't get rid of him)
2) let someone know (LA, TD, AD, ...) that he is disrupting the game, weakening your credibility and messing up the players

Why is " runner steals second, coach tells her to go back, she goes about half way and stops continues on to first and stops" a LBR violation. Did the pitcher have the ball in circle when she left 2nd? Did I read it wrong?

[blueskysblue]

Unusual !

I have never thought about LBR when the runner is reversing on the bases, only when she is progressing.

I could well be wrong, but I don't think I would call it.

So, hypothetically, if the batter had gone to first, and the coach told her to return to the plate, would you call her out for moving back toward the plate?

Regarding the coach: I have submitted a written report to the State HS Association, even without an ejection having occured, it this exact same scenario. Don't know how they have dealt with it, though.

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by blueskysblue

Unusual !

I have never thought about LBR when the runner is reversing on the bases, only when she is progressing.

I could well be wrong, but I don't think I would call itSo, hypothetically, if the batter had gone to first, and the coach told her to return to the plate, would you call her out for moving back toward the plate?

Regarding the coach: I have submitted a written report to the State HS Association, even without an ejection having occured, it this exact same scenario. Don't know how they have dealt with it, though.

"So, hypothetically, if the batter had gone to first, and the coach told her to return to the plate, would you call her out for moving back toward the plate?"

**That's the rule in softball.

Bob

[JEL]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

"So, hypothetically, if the batter had gone to first, and the coach told her to return to the plate, would you call her out for moving back toward the plate?"

**That's the rule in softball.

Bob

***if avoiding a tag

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by JEL

***if avoiding a tag

...or delaying a tag.

[IamMatt]

I bet he did not politely ask for Time, then approach you and have these discussions in private, did he? Probably would have made a difference.

Might have helped if he had a rule book in the dugout too.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by blueskysblue

Unusual !

I have never thought about LBR when the runner is reversing on the bases, only when she is progressing.

I could well be wrong, but I don't think I would call it.

So, hypothetically, if the batter had gone to first, and the coach told her to return to the plate, would you call her out for moving back toward the plate?

The LBR has nothing to do with the direction or intent of the runner. The only condition is remaining in contact with the base.

In this case, the LBR was quite appropriate as would ASA 8.7.S be.

DMC

[Mountaineer]

Depending on the coach's demeaner during his "questioning" sessions - he might have had an early trip to the house. I have become less tolerant with "intelligent ignorance" in coaches. Those coaches that "KNOW" the rules that they have never read absolutly KILL me.

As far as the LBR, let me ask this: When she rounds first, she can stop and then must immediately go one direction or the other. Would the same not hold true for "stealing" first? If she stopped and then immediately went to first could the same verbage not be used in this ruling? I probably would have done nothing like bluesky, I certainly don't think I would have gotten an out unless they made a play and tagged her out. I might be wrong, but that's what I would have done at the time.

[mcrowder]

First, I think you don't have an LBR violation here unless the ball was in the pitcher's hand when the runner was touching 2nd base (at which point you have LBR immediately after the runner starts heading to first - and none of the rest of the action would have occurred), or the stop in the middle was inordinately long.

Assuming the runner was in motion toward first when the pitcher secured the ball - the runner is allowed to A) proceed in the direction she's going, B) stop exactly once and "immediately" (one thousand one, one th..) either continue moving in the same direction or reverse course and move in the opposite direct. Sounds like that is what she did, thus no out.

However, the topic at hand is really how to deal with this coach, who is polite but consistenly wrong and consistently disrupting the game. At the third one of these, I'm probably saying something like, "Coach, I appreciate your demeanor with all of your mistaken rules interpretations, but you are disrupting the game. If you have an issue from here on out that you are so sure that I'm wrong about that you intend to protest, feel free to call time and initiate your protest. Barring that, let's not waste any more of our time with a rules clinic. I'd love to have you at our next coach/umpire clinic and we can address all of these situations and look at the rules, but the field is not the place for a clinic."

If he calls time again to argue something and doesn't protest, toss him.

[BretMan]

How I'd probably handle it:

Coach: (Offers incorrect rule interpretation.)

Me: (Offers correct rule interpretation.)

Coach: "No, that isn't right...blah, blah, blah..."

Me: "Coach, do you wish to file a protest?".

If he does, we handle it.

If not...

Me: "Coach, we're finished discussing this. Please return to your dugout."

His reaction to my request will determine if he remains in the game as a participant or not.

How I'd like to handle it...

"Coach, you seem pretty sure of yourself and seem to think you have a better understanding of these rules than I do. Let's make this interesting. Fifty bucks says I'm right on each of the rules you're arguing. Now, that's fifty bucks for each one of the rules you think I have wrong. After the game, we'll grab your rule book- you do have a rule book, don't you? If not we'll grab mine. Meet me over at the wiener wagon and we'll go over each rule point-by-point.

Oh yeah...I accept cash, check or credit card!"

[waltjp]

These all happened in the same game.

1. Coach complains when I called his runner out for interference when the runner collided with the F6 who was fielding a ground ball. "But Blue, she was in the baseline!"

"Thank you coach, I saw that too."

2. Runners on second and third. Batter flies out to CF. Runner from third tags, runner on second is half-way. Throw from F8 sails into DBT. I award R2 home on the throw. "But Blue, she was going BACK to second base!"

"Thanks again, coach."

3. R2 attempts to advance to third on passed ball. Catcher's throw pulls F5 off the bag and into the runner. "That's obstruction!"

"But Blue, you called my runner out for doing that!"

"No, your runner was out for interfering with a fielding trying to field a ground ball."

During the break between innings as he's making his way to the first base coach's box he's complaining about the bad calls, how horrible I am, etc. I didn't respond at first but had finally had enough and told him that each call was absolutely correct but he should have protested if he disagreed. He told me that he 'still might'. "Ahh, but coach, you have a problem, you can't protest NOW. You have to do it when the situation occurs."

"That's horrible! Those were terrible calls."

"Coach, you're starting to show your ignorance."

Turn and walk away.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by waltjp

These all happened in the same game.

1. Coach complains when I called his runner out for interference when the runner collided with the F6 who was fielding a ground ball. "But Blue, she was in the baseline!"

"Thank you coach, I saw that too."

2. Runners on second and third. Batter flies out to CF. Runner from third tags, runner on second is half-way. Throw from F8 sails into DBT. I award R2 home on the throw. "But Blue, she was going BACK to second base!"

"Thanks again, coach."

3. R2 attempts to advance to third on passed ball. Catcher's throw pulls F5 off the bag and into the runner. "That's obstruction!"

"But Blue, you called my runner out for doing that!"

"No, your runner was out for interfering with a fielding trying to field a ground ball."

During the break between innings as he's making his way to the first base coach's box he's complaining about the bad calls, how horrible I am, etc. I didn't respond at first but had finally had enough and told him that each call was absolutely correct but he should have protested if he disagreed. He told me that he 'still might'. "Ahh, but coach, you have a problem, you can't protest NOW. You have to do it when the situation occurs."

"That's horrible! Those were terrible calls."

"Coach, you're starting to show your ignorance."

Turn and walk away.

Sounds like someone who attends the Tim McCarver/Joe Morgan Umpire Clinic on a regular basis.

[bluezebra]

"What to do when a coach just does not know a rule and insists that you are wrong?"

Offer to hold a rules clinic after the game. At $50.00 an hour.

Bob

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by BuggBob

One more time he tells me I am wrong. So I banned him to the bench. I know that ASA does not have a banned to the bench protocol, but this guy sure didn't know that. He would not believe me on all the real rules, but the one rule that I invented he believed.

You need to be careful with this, though, because sooner or later, you'll run into a coach who may not know the finer points of the rules, but knows this is a myth (and it will convince him or her that you really are wrong with the previous calls he or she argued).