ASA Rules - No slide at the plate.. is ball dead ?

[WeekendRef]

Last night while playing in a rec softball game there was a situation that arose that I was hoping somebody may give me some clarity to . I will let you know up front that the call went against us but I was not upset because a) it is rec softball and b) we were losing by quite a bit anyway and this had no bearing on the outcome .
Situation :
Runner on second and first and there is a base hit to right field and there is a play at the plate . The ball and the runner get to home plate at the same time . The runner does not slide and knocks the catcher over . The ball then gets away from the catcher allowing the runner who was on first as well as the batter to score . The runner who was involved in the play at the plate is declared out because he did not slide (It was not malicious...he just ran him over) .
Question :
My question is should the ball be dead at this point because the runner did not slide ?
My opinion :
From my perspective if the catcher was not knocked over the the ball would not have gotten past him allowing the other two runners to score .(Actually the ball probably would have gotten by our catcher anyway because he really does not live up to his position title but lets assume he can catch a little bit .
HELP :
Trust me I have no problems if I am wrong I just want to understand this a little better . If somebody can provide the rule that covers this (If there is one) that would be great .

[Dakota]

The runner who was involved in the play at the plate is declared out because he did not slide

Do you have a local "must slide" rule?

In standard ASA, the runner might have been declared out for crash interference (dead ball, runner out, other runners return to their bases as the time of the interference). He might also have been declared out for flagrant misconduct due to taking out the catcher (also dead ball, runners return, etc.).

He would not have been declared out merely for not sliding, however.

If you have a local rule, does it state whether the ball is live or dead?

[WeekendRef]

Ok my bad . I thought it was a uniform rule that you can't run over the catcher (Again, it was not malicious the guy just evidently did not want to slide) . I guess that was my first error...
The umpire was a certified ASA guy and I thought he was handling the game using ASA rules but we do have a no contact rule which I am copying below....as I thought it makes no mention of dead ball or not (written by Parks and Rec dept not softball guys)
"Player must slide or submit to a tag if a play is being made on them . They must make every effort to avoid contact "
It also states that "Barrelling into a fielder can be considered interference or dangerous play which can result in being called out".
To me it is still somewhat nebulous...as what is "a dangerous play" ? Not sure if the runner was called out for interferece or the "dangerous play"

[IRISHMAFIA]

(It was not malicious...he just ran him over)

You make a point to tell us this is rec ball, but you don't consider running over someone malicious?

From the local rule you cited, it seems the umpire was correct. HTBT, but he was probably right as far as ASA is concerned, also.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by WeekendRef

Ok my bad . I thought it was a uniform rule that you can't run over the catcher (Again, it was not malicious the guy just evidently did not want to slide) . I guess that was my first error...
The umpire was a certified ASA guy and I thought he was handling the game using ASA rules but we do have a no contact rule which I am copying below....as I thought it makes no mention of dead ball or not (written by Parks and Rec dept not softball guys)
"Player must slide or submit to a tag if a play is being made on them . They must make every effort to avoid contact "
It also states that "Barrelling into a fielder can be considered interference or dangerous play which can result in being called out".
To me it is still somewhat nebulous...as what is "a dangerous play" ? Not sure if the runner was called out for interferece or the "dangerous play"

Because your local rule reads similar to the existing ASA rule on interference, my inference would be that the ball would be dead if the out was called based on this local rule. Runners would be sent to the last base touched at the time of the interference.

As for what is a "dangerous play", that would be left to the judgement of the individual umpire.

[WeekendRef]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You make a point to tell us this is rec ball, but you don't consider running over someone malicious?

From the local rule you cited, it seems the umpire was correct. HTBT, but he was probably right as far as ASA is concerned, also.

IRISH MAFIA,
As it is Rec Ball there are some guys who if they slid would not be able to get back up He was not a svelte fella and I don't think getting down was an option for him...he ran the catcher over but also tried to keep him from falling at the same time . "Ran into" not ran over may have been the better phrase .

I am confused on your point about the Umpire being right....are you saying that is should have been a live ball after the contact and the resulting runs should have scored or are you saying he should have been called out because of the contact and the ball should have been declared dead at the point of contact ?
Sorry if I didn't understand you...

[Hoosier_Dave]

Sounds like interference. If the catcher was camped in front of the plate, that's obstruction. When the runner comes barreling in, that's interference which overrules obstruction. Runner out, all others return. (I've called this before). If runner would have pulled up to avoid hitting the catcher, then you have catcher obstruction and runner is awarded home. Rules reference is Point of Emphasis #14 and #36. So if the runner is a nice guy and pulls up so as not to hit the catcher, he scores on an awarded home plate and all his teammates get to stay at their bases.

[WeekendRef]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_Dave

Sounds like interference. If the catcher was camped in front of the plate, that's obstruction. When the runner comes barreling in, that's interference which overrules obstruction. Runner out, all others return. (I've called this before). If runner would have pulled up to avoid hitting the catcher, then you have catcher obstruction and runner is awarded home. Rules reference is Point of Emphasis #14 and #36. So if the runner is a nice guy and pulls up so as not to hit the catcher, he scores on an awarded home plate and all his teammates get to stay at their bases.

So in essence what you are saying that nice guys do get rewarded....I like the sound of that !

[JefferMC]

Would you contrast this to an NFHS situation that occured in the County Playoff championship game in April:

Top Second Inning (I think): Runner from third crashes into pitcher (with ball) covering the plate on a passed ball. Pitcher is injured, offensive team (A) receives a must-slide-or-be-out warning from PU, but runner scores since ball was dropped.

Bottom Third Inning (again, I think): Team B runner from third dances around catcher standing over plate waiting for ball to be relayed from outfield and touches plate before ball arrives. PU now warns team B of must-slide-rule. I'm scratching my head here because there was no play, the ball MAY have been as close as over the pitchers circle when the runner touched home.

Bottom Sixth Inning: Team B runner from third (actually same runner from bottom 3rd, who doesn't apparently doesn't know how to slide effectively [coaching error for sure]) again steps on plate behind catcher, who is actually recieving the ball (but not blocking plate) as runner reaches home. No collision. Umpire rules runner out for not sliding.

What's your opinion?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

What's your opinion?

The PU needs to learn the rules.

[AtlUmpSteve]

My opinion is that PU didn't get any of these plays right. First play should have been an out on the collision (8-6-13); the second two instances were clear "no-call" plays.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by WeekendRef

"Player must slide or submit to a tag if a play is being made on them . They must make every effort to avoid contact "
It also states that "Barrelling into a fielder can be considered interference or dangerous play which can result in being called out".
To me it is still somewhat nebulous...as what is "a dangerous play" ? Not sure if the runner was called out for interferece or the "dangerous play"

By what the Rec League rules state that are listed - I believe an out declared in either situation would result in a dead ball, with all runners returned to the last base touched at the time of the INT.

Rant on.

From my experience, City/Community/Rec Leagues would be better served simply adhering to, universally deferring to, and re-printing in their league rules the ASA rules regarding crashing into fielders, INT, OBR, etc., rather than confounding things by inventing or continuing to grandfather in old league rules/statements to try to make the environment seem more "rec-friendly." The ASA rule set works very well on its own, IMHO.

Rant off.

[Mountaineer]

*Thread Hijack*
The first one for me is a HTBT - but sounds at least close to malicious contact. If the player has the ball in their possession - that's good enough for me. The other two? Are you kidding me? Umpires that even think there's a "must slide" rule need to have an examination - sheeeeesh. It's bad enough that parents think that's a rule.

*Hijack off*

As far as the initial thread goes - depending on the severity of the contact, someone's night may have just been shortened. According to the local rule, the "Player must slide or submit to a tag if a play is being made on them . They must make every effort to avoid contact." I assume then that they are taking the obstruction rule out of play. If a play is being made on them, they must "submit" to a tag? What the hell is that? Maybe my "special filter" got switched on again, but that just seems strange to me.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

The ASA rule set works very well on its own, IMHO.

Agreed. If properly enforced, the ASA rules are very "rec friendly" ... meaning they have a sound emphasis on player safety.

The "must slide" rules, in fact, tend to compromise safety.

[CecilOne]

WHY THE .... CAN'T WE PUT THE MUST SLIDE NONSENSE TO DEATH???


It might be the most asked and over-discussed non-rule on earth.


Yes, I know it exists in LL, but that's a very rare book here.