Submission for quote of the year, 2006

[blu_bawls]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

A line-up card is a reference tool.

It is also the official batting order, which makes it the legal record for the purposes of the rules relating to the batting line-up, substitutions and reentries, not to mention potential protests.

Actually, its a copy of the official line ups. The official line ups are in the team books with thte home team being the official book.

Does the ASA or USSSA have a section in their rule books about line up cards?

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by blu_bawls

Actually, its a copy of the official line ups. The official line ups are in the team books with thte home team being the official book.

Does the ASA or USSSA have a section in their rule books about line up cards?

OK, when you take the line-up from the coach do you say - this is official? All I can go by is the line up they give me at the plate meeting. If a coach comes up and has a starter that is out of the game and wants to put her in a differents spot in the order - would you allow that? What if they insist? It's called preventative umpiring. I do that from time to time. If I see a pitcher doing something illegal during warmups, I might tell the catcher to go tell her to correct it before I have to. If a player comes to bat and I see an illegal bat in her hands, I'll send her to get another one. If a coach wants to make an illegal substitution, I'm going to say, "Coach, you can't do that."

Maybe I'm alone in this, but that's what I do.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

OK, when you take the line-up from the coach do you say - this is official? All I can go by is the line up they give me at the plate meeting. If a coach comes up and has a starter that is out of the game and wants to put her in a differents spot in the order - would you allow that? What if they insist? It's called preventative umpiring. I do that from time to time. If I see a pitcher doing something illegal during warmups, I might tell the catcher to go tell her to correct it before I have to. If a player comes to bat and I see an illegal bat in her hands, I'll send her to get another one. If a coach wants to make an illegal substitution, I'm going to say, "Coach, you can't do that."

Maybe I'm alone in this, but that's what I do.

Ive seen mens FP pitchers warm up by pitching from 2nd base..

Many .. maybe most pitchers pitch illegally during warm ups. They are just warming up. I dont believe you can judge a pitcher by warmups.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Ive seen mens FP pitchers warm up by pitching from 2nd base..

Many .. maybe most pitchers pitch illegally during warm ups. They are just warming up. I dont believe you can judge a pitcher by warmups.

I don't agree. There are pitchers who do warm up from behind the PP but they are the experienced and usually better pitchers that use the run up method. Your average pitcher throws her warm ups just like she pitches and you can see the illegal stuff during warm ups. I usually don't warn them when I see it. I am not the coach. I am the ENFORCER.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

I don't agree. There are pitchers who do warm up from behind the PP but they are the experienced and usually better pitchers that use the run up method. Your average pitcher throws her warm ups just like she pitches and you can see the illegal stuff during warm ups. I usually don't warn them when I see it. I am not the coach. I am the ENFORCER.

Probably correct, if you are working a 12U rec league game with some pitcher who can barely pitch as it is, they are probably warming up the way they pitch and its probably ok to let the catcher or coach between innings - but I think at any decent level or travel ball you shouldnt be "coaching".

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Probably correct, if you are working a 12U rec league game with some pitcher who can barely pitch as it is, they are probably warming up the way they pitch and its probably ok to let the catcher or coach between innings - but I think at any decent level or travel ball you shouldnt be "coaching".

Agreed.

The pitchers that pitch illegally during warmups tend to be either very experienced (leave 'em alone), or inexperienced / rec level (you may want to mention it to the coach). And, in either case, in any tournament play that matters, leave 'em alone. If they are playing there, they should know the rules.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Agreed.

The pitchers that pitch illegally during warmups tend to be either very experienced (leave 'em alone), or inexperienced / rec level (you may want to mention it to the coach). And, in either case, in any tournament play that matters, leave 'em alone. If they are playing there, they should know the rules.

As teams first make the transition from high school to ASA travel, I do remind pitchers who warm up with NFHS mechanics "two feet on the pitching plate here". Not much else; that one is too much of a "gotcha", IMO, to leave unsaid.

[blu_bawls]

OK. Asa says it is. What does NFHS say?

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by blu_bawls

OK. Asa says it is. What does NFHS say?

NFHS 3-1-3

... Lineups become official after they have been exchanged, verified and then accepted by the plate umpire during the pregame conference.

Emphasis added.

Looks like NFHS agrees with ASA.

I think this entire discussion has gotten way out of hand in order to attempt to decide something that is basically common sense. Why would you let someone do something illegal, when you have the ability to stop them? Although some may feel that there is a thin line between 'coaching the coach' and 'preventative umpiring', I don't believe that informing the coach that they are attempting to do something illegal is outside our scope as impartial judges of the contest.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by blu_bawls

Does the ASA or USSSA have a section in their rule books about line up cards?

ASA 4-1-A(1), which says in part,

A starting player shall be official when the line-up is inspected and approved by the plate umpire and team manager at the pre-game meeting.

ASA 7-2-A

The batting order ... must be delivered before the game by the manager or captain to the plate umpire.

ASA 7-2-B

The batting order delivered to the umpire must be followed throughout the game, unless a player is replaced by:
1. A substitute ... or
2. ... FLEX bats for DP ...

ASA 5-6-A

The manager or team representative of the team making the substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the substitute enters. The plate umpire shall then report the change to the scorer.

ASA 8-10-G

A courtesy runner must be reported to the plate umpire.

The aggregate of all of these makes the umpire's line-up card just a smidge more important than a mere copy. It is the original (where originally submitted by the team manager; where changes are originally made by the plate umpire). The score book is the copy. Especially in the 99% of the games that do not have an impartial official scorekeeper.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Let's add the ASA Umpire manual, which states (Pregame Ground Rules),

Check the lineups from the respective teams. Make certain each checks his lineup card including first, last name, defensive position, and number of each participant. When returned to the umpire, the lineup is official. If an extra copy is available, it should be turned over to the scorekeeper.

Following the pregame discussion with the managers, it is advisable to double check the data with the scorer .....discuss with the official scorer such matters as how YOU will be handling the appearance of pinch hitters and substitutes. This matter is particularly important because of the reentry rule, and in fast pitch games, the designated player rules.

And, finally,

The umpire is responsible for the batting order and should maintain a lineup card throughout the game.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Piggyback thought. Ever wonder why, in ITB, it is the responsibility of the umpire to advise the teams which runner starts at 2nd base. Or why, if the wrong runner is used, the runner is simply replaced without penalty??

Because the umpire has the official lineup card!!

[blu_bawls]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Piggyback thought. Ever wonder why, in ITB, it is the responsibility of the umpire to advise the teams which runner starts at 2nd base. Or why, if the wrong runner is used, the runner is simply replaced without penalty??

Because the umpire has the official lineup card!!

Actually you can do that without a lineup card. You check the official book.

Now I don't see anywhere where the expression "official" is used to describe the lineup card. The only thing I find is official book.

Please advise.