Submission for quote of the year, 2006

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

That wouldn't be coaching, that would be doing YOUR job. There is no reason to accept an illegal substitution, and it was your job to say that was an illegal substitution. It can't happen accidently if you are doing your job; and should never happen knowingly on your part.

Sorry, I disagree completely with your example.

Me too. Thank you for the voice of reason.

[CelticNHBlue]

A cute quote some of you may have experienced:

Banger at first and I sell the out. Before I am even done-

BR "But I am faster than I look, blue!!!"

[blu_bawls]

Disagree. I may ask the coach if he/she is sure they want to do it but then stop there.

Why should I take an opportunity from the defense to get an out because they were on their toes and the offense wasn't?

With a runner on base and a fly ball to the outfield, do you tell the runner when she can leave on a tag-up? It's the same thing. You would be preventing an out from possible being awarded to the defense if they appealed a runner leaving early on a fcaught lyball.

Giving a coach feedback when they ask if they can do something is one thing but giving counsel without being asked is another.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by blu_bawls

With a runner on base and a fly ball to the outfield, do you tell the runner when she can leave on a tag-up? It's the same thing.

No, it isn't. The difference is that with a CR you should be taking out your lineup card and noting the change. If you knowingly make note of an illegal change, you are not doing your job. You now have an illegal lineup card in your pocket that you created.

Now, if the umpire screws up and unknowingly allows an illegal sub, CR, or lineup, then the coach and his team are the ones who will pay the penalty if the opponents notice, but it is still the umpire who screwed up.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by Dakota

No, it isn't. The difference is that with a CR you should be taking out your lineup card and noting the change. If you knowingly make note of an illegal change, you are not doing your job. You now have an illegal lineup card in your pocket that you created.

Now, if the umpire screws up and unknowingly allows an illegal sub, CR, or lineup, then the coach and his team are the ones who will pay the penalty if the opponents notice, but it is still the umpire who screwed up.

In our Assoc. The BU is responsible for tracking courtesy runners. This would leave us open to the possibility cited above since the PU with the lineup card does not note that. I will be talking to our clinician about that.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

In our Assoc. The BU is responsible for tracking courtesy runners. This would leave us open to the possibility cited above since the PU with the lineup card does not note that. I will be talking to our clinician about that.

I like CR tracking by BU, too. It's still a change that must be reported and it's on the mental lineup card, if not on the written one.

[blu_bawls]

Originally Posted by Dakota

No, it isn't. The difference is that with a CR you should be taking out your lineup card and noting the change. If you knowingly make note of an illegal change, you are not doing your job. You now have an illegal lineup card in your pocket that you created.

Now, if the umpire screws up and unknowingly allows an illegal sub, CR, or lineup, then the coach and his team are the ones who will pay the penalty if the opponents notice, but it is still the umpire who screwed up.

What is an illegal lineup card?

The umpires lineup card is a reference tool, not an official document. Unlike Minnesota ASA, most organizations do not require the turning in of a line up card.

The home teams book is the official reference of record.

A team can do anything they want to the lineup. They can bat out of order, they can enter illegal and unreported substitutions as much as they want until the other team says something about their actions.

As an umpire, the only substitution you shouldn't allow is a player who has been ejected or confined to the bench.

There are penalties for illegal subs in every rule book and they are there to penalize the offending team and reward the team offended.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by blu_bawls

What is an illegal lineup card?

The umpires lineup card is a reference tool, not an official document. Unlike Minnesota ASA, most organizations do not require the turning in of a line up card.

The home teams book is the official reference of record.

A team can do anything they want to the lineup. They can bat out of order, they can enter illegal and unreported substitutions as much as they want until the other team says something about their actions.

As an umpire, the only substitution you shouldn't allow is a player who has been ejected or confined to the bench.

There are penalties for illegal subs in every rule book and they are there to penalize the offending team and reward the team offended.

Wow!! And, to think Emily spent all that effort creating a system of lineup card management for something that is only a reference tool.

Not sure where you umpire, blu_bawls, but start clicking your heels; time to go home.

[blu_bawls]

It is a reference tool. Tell me where have you ever had someone use the lineup card as an official record of a game? It doesn't record pitch counts, bb, hits, errors or anything else relevant to the game.

Management is one thing and Emily has done a good job with that but the final tally comes down to the home teams book unless an official scorekeeper/book person is employed.

You have to place more of the responsibility on the coach than you do on the umpire. The umpire enforces the rules. He/she does not coach within them.

I am sure others will come back here with comments about surviving on the field but this is not about surviving. The coach will learn from his/her mistake when the other team brings it to the umpires attention.

If a coach comes to me in this situation and says "Can I put #7 in as CR for F1" I will say "No and give the explanation.".

If the same coach in the same situation yells out "#7 is coutesy runner for F1" and sends #7 to the base I am going to note the change and play on and let the pieces fall where they may.

[IRISHMAFIA]

A line-up card is a reference tool.

It is also the official batting order, which makes it the legal record for the purposes of the rules relating to the batting line-up, substitutions and reentries, not to mention potential protests.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by blu_bawls

The umpire enforces the rules.

Thank you for making the argument for the other side. As much as I like getting 42 outs as quickly as possible...I will do my best to not allow a coach to do something like this contrary to the rules.

If they INSIST, that's one thing, but I will lead them away from the path to perdition as much as possible.

I am not out there to coach...but I am out there to maintain the integrity of the game. Preventative umpiring is part of that.

And as far as being the one who tallies the runs, what say you if, for instance, a runner misses the plate. The scorekeeper (home book or someone employed to keep the book) marks the run. Then you have a proper, legal appeal. Do you somehow tell the scorekeeper that run didn't score (by calling the runner out through some pronouncement)? Of course you do (at least I hope so).

As an amateur baseball historian, I would throw a reference at ya from 98 years ago, Cubs v. Giants. Hank O' Day was base umpire, Bill Emslie was PU. Bases loaded for Giants. Ball hit to outfield. Runner from third scores. In the ensuing celebration, Fred Merkle didn't go to second - he stopped and joined in the celebration. Cubs retreieved a ball (likely not the game ball, but who knows) and tag second base after getting O'Day's attention.

Only people who knew the score were O'Day and Emslie. Went down as a tie, teams tie for the pennant, Cubs win Cubs win Cubs win in a playoff - all becaue an umpire cared enough to do his job.

OK, I've gone off on a tangent, but my point is that your lineup is much more than a piece of paper. You may not be the scorekeeper, but you are the gatekeeper. No one comes in or out of the game without coming through you. No one scores unless you say they score. No one is safe or out or hits fair or foul unless YOU say they do.

My humble advice is to be very assertive in not letting folks hang themselves - within reason.