Submission for quote of the year, 2006

[blu_bawls]

It is a reference tool. Tell me where have you ever had someone use the lineup card as an official record of a game? It doesn't record pitch counts, bb, hits, errors or anything else relevant to the game.

Management is one thing and Emily has done a good job with that but the final tally comes down to the home teams book unless an official scorekeeper/book person is employed.

You have to place more of the responsibility on the coach than you do on the umpire. The umpire enforces the rules. He/she does not coach within them.

I am sure others will come back here with comments about surviving on the field but this is not about surviving. The coach will learn from his/her mistake when the other team brings it to the umpires attention.

If a coach comes to me in this situation and says "Can I put #7 in as CR for F1" I will say "No and give the explanation.".

If the same coach in the same situation yells out "#7 is coutesy runner for F1" and sends #7 to the base I am going to note the change and play on and let the pieces fall where they may.

[IRISHMAFIA]

A line-up card is a reference tool.

It is also the official batting order, which makes it the legal record for the purposes of the rules relating to the batting line-up, substitutions and reentries, not to mention potential protests.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by blu_bawls

The umpire enforces the rules.

Thank you for making the argument for the other side. As much as I like getting 42 outs as quickly as possible...I will do my best to not allow a coach to do something like this contrary to the rules.

If they INSIST, that's one thing, but I will lead them away from the path to perdition as much as possible.

I am not out there to coach...but I am out there to maintain the integrity of the game. Preventative umpiring is part of that.

And as far as being the one who tallies the runs, what say you if, for instance, a runner misses the plate. The scorekeeper (home book or someone employed to keep the book) marks the run. Then you have a proper, legal appeal. Do you somehow tell the scorekeeper that run didn't score (by calling the runner out through some pronouncement)? Of course you do (at least I hope so).

As an amateur baseball historian, I would throw a reference at ya from 98 years ago, Cubs v. Giants. Hank O' Day was base umpire, Bill Emslie was PU. Bases loaded for Giants. Ball hit to outfield. Runner from third scores. In the ensuing celebration, Fred Merkle didn't go to second - he stopped and joined in the celebration. Cubs retreieved a ball (likely not the game ball, but who knows) and tag second base after getting O'Day's attention.

Only people who knew the score were O'Day and Emslie. Went down as a tie, teams tie for the pennant, Cubs win Cubs win Cubs win in a playoff - all becaue an umpire cared enough to do his job.

OK, I've gone off on a tangent, but my point is that your lineup is much more than a piece of paper. You may not be the scorekeeper, but you are the gatekeeper. No one comes in or out of the game without coming through you. No one scores unless you say they score. No one is safe or out or hits fair or foul unless YOU say they do.

My humble advice is to be very assertive in not letting folks hang themselves - within reason.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

In our Assoc. The BU is responsible for tracking courtesy runners. This would leave us open to the possibility cited above since the PU with the lineup card does not note that. I will be talking to our clinician about that.

I like CR tracking by BU, too. It's still a change that must be reported and it's on the mental lineup card, if not on the written one.

[scottk_61]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

Thank you for making the argument for the other side. As much as I like getting 42 outs as quickly as possible...I will do my best to not allow a coach to do something like this contrary to the rules.

If they INSIST, that's one thing, but I will lead them away from the path to perdition as much as possible.

I am not out there to coach...but I am out there to maintain the integrity of the game. Preventative umpiring is part of that.

And as far as being the one who tallies the runs, what say you if, for instance, a runner misses the plate. The scorekeeper (home book or someone employed to keep the book) marks the run. Then you have a proper, legal appeal. Do you somehow tell the scorekeeper that run didn't score (by calling the runner out through some pronouncement)? Of course you do (at least I hope so).

.

My humble advice is to be very assertive in not letting folks hang themselves - within reason.

Now this is common sense and good game management.

Good post John,
I wish that I would have had an opportunity to work with you at a National or something.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by scottk_61

Now this is common sense and good game management.

Good post John,
I wish that I would have had an opportunity to work with you at a National or something.

Thank you Scott. It would be my pleasure.

[blu_bawls]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

A line-up card is a reference tool.

It is also the official batting order, which makes it the legal record for the purposes of the rules relating to the batting line-up, substitutions and reentries, not to mention potential protests.

Actually, its a copy of the official line ups. The official line ups are in the team books with thte home team being the official book.

Does the ASA or USSSA have a section in their rule books about line up cards?

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by Andy

I think it took the first base coach about 30 seconds to realize that he had just called a strike on his own batter!

Now THAT'S funny!

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by blu_bawls

Actually, its a copy of the official line ups. The official line ups are in the team books with thte home team being the official book.

Does the ASA or USSSA have a section in their rule books about line up cards?

OK, when you take the line-up from the coach do you say - this is official? All I can go by is the line up they give me at the plate meeting. If a coach comes up and has a starter that is out of the game and wants to put her in a differents spot in the order - would you allow that? What if they insist? It's called preventative umpiring. I do that from time to time. If I see a pitcher doing something illegal during warmups, I might tell the catcher to go tell her to correct it before I have to. If a player comes to bat and I see an illegal bat in her hands, I'll send her to get another one. If a coach wants to make an illegal substitution, I'm going to say, "Coach, you can't do that."

Maybe I'm alone in this, but that's what I do.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

OK, when you take the line-up from the coach do you say - this is official? All I can go by is the line up they give me at the plate meeting. If a coach comes up and has a starter that is out of the game and wants to put her in a differents spot in the order - would you allow that? What if they insist? It's called preventative umpiring. I do that from time to time. If I see a pitcher doing something illegal during warmups, I might tell the catcher to go tell her to correct it before I have to. If a player comes to bat and I see an illegal bat in her hands, I'll send her to get another one. If a coach wants to make an illegal substitution, I'm going to say, "Coach, you can't do that."

Maybe I'm alone in this, but that's what I do.

Ive seen mens FP pitchers warm up by pitching from 2nd base..

Many .. maybe most pitchers pitch illegally during warm ups. They are just warming up. I dont believe you can judge a pitcher by warmups.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Ive seen mens FP pitchers warm up by pitching from 2nd base..

Many .. maybe most pitchers pitch illegally during warm ups. They are just warming up. I dont believe you can judge a pitcher by warmups.

I don't agree. There are pitchers who do warm up from behind the PP but they are the experienced and usually better pitchers that use the run up method. Your average pitcher throws her warm ups just like she pitches and you can see the illegal stuff during warm ups. I usually don't warn them when I see it. I am not the coach. I am the ENFORCER.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by blu_bawls

Does the ASA or USSSA have a section in their rule books about line up cards?

ASA 4-1-A(1), which says in part,

A starting player shall be official when the line-up is inspected and approved by the plate umpire and team manager at the pre-game meeting.

ASA 7-2-A

The batting order ... must be delivered before the game by the manager or captain to the plate umpire.

ASA 7-2-B

The batting order delivered to the umpire must be followed throughout the game, unless a player is replaced by:
1. A substitute ... or
2. ... FLEX bats for DP ...

ASA 5-6-A

The manager or team representative of the team making the substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the substitute enters. The plate umpire shall then report the change to the scorer.

ASA 8-10-G

A courtesy runner must be reported to the plate umpire.

The aggregate of all of these makes the umpire's line-up card just a smidge more important than a mere copy. It is the original (where originally submitted by the team manager; where changes are originally made by the plate umpire). The score book is the copy. Especially in the 99% of the games that do not have an impartial official scorekeeper.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Let's add the ASA Umpire manual, which states (Pregame Ground Rules),

Check the lineups from the respective teams. Make certain each checks his lineup card including first, last name, defensive position, and number of each participant. When returned to the umpire, the lineup is official. If an extra copy is available, it should be turned over to the scorekeeper.

Following the pregame discussion with the managers, it is advisable to double check the data with the scorer .....discuss with the official scorer such matters as how YOU will be handling the appearance of pinch hitters and substitutes. This matter is particularly important because of the reentry rule, and in fast pitch games, the designated player rules.

And, finally,

The umpire is responsible for the batting order and should maintain a lineup card throughout the game.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Piggyback thought. Ever wonder why, in ITB, it is the responsibility of the umpire to advise the teams which runner starts at 2nd base. Or why, if the wrong runner is used, the runner is simply replaced without penalty??

Because the umpire has the official lineup card!!

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

I don't agree. There are pitchers who do warm up from behind the PP but they are the experienced and usually better pitchers that use the run up method. Your average pitcher throws her warm ups just like she pitches and you can see the illegal stuff during warm ups. I usually don't warn them when I see it. I am not the coach. I am the ENFORCER.

Probably correct, if you are working a 12U rec league game with some pitcher who can barely pitch as it is, they are probably warming up the way they pitch and its probably ok to let the catcher or coach between innings - but I think at any decent level or travel ball you shouldnt be "coaching".