Teaching the rules....one coach at a time!

[Andy]

Last night I am working an 18u city league game solo. This league is very relaxed, mostly used by B level teams and HS freshman/JV teams as a developmental league.

The play - R1 on 3rd, 1 out. B2 hits a line shot between F8 and F9, R1 scores easily. I am watching BR run the bases and see that she steps right over second base on her way to third. Everybody in the park, including the offensive coaches, saw this. BR stops at third, ball is returned to F1 in the circle. Defensive coach yells out to his players to appeal the runner missing second and F1 starts to throw the ball to F6 standing on second base. Coach yells out, "Just tell the umpire!" F1 looks at me and says, "She missed second base." I ring up the out.

Offensive coach starts to tell me that they never threw the ball to second, so his runner can't be out, I tell him that the appeal was proper, lets have a batter. After the half inning was over, I approached him and his staff and explained a proper appeal to them. Of course, I got the look of dumbfounded expression, followed by "Are you sure? I thought that they had to throw the ball to the base!"

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Andy

Last night I am working an 18u city league game solo. This league is very relaxed, mostly used by B level teams and HS freshman/JV teams as a developmental league.

The play - R1 on 3rd, 1 out. B2 hits a line shot between F8 and F9, R1 scores easily. I am watching BR run the bases and see that she steps right over second base on her way to third. Everybody in the park, including the offensive coaches, saw this. BR stops at third, ball is returned to F1 in the circle. Defensive coach yells out to his players to appeal the runner missing second and F1 starts to throw the ball to F6 standing on second base. Coach yells out, "Just tell the umpire!" F1 looks at me and says, "She missed second base." I ring up the out.

Offensive coach starts to tell me that they never threw the ball to second, so his runner can't be out, I tell him that the appeal was proper, lets have a batter. After the half inning was over, I approached him and his staff and explained a proper appeal to them. Of course, I got the look of dumbfounded expression, followed by "Are you sure? I thought that they had to throw the ball to the base!"

Can we assume you called time before "F1 looks at me and says, "She missed second base." I ring up the out. ", so it was a dead ball appeal?
Can we assume the O coach knew it was softball?

Remember my earlier Q about we are always wrong?

[NSABlue]

Andy,

I think I agree with Cecilone here. From your OP, it does not sound like the ball ever became a dead ball on the play. Therfor, to make a live ball appeal, the defensive team would have to either touch 2nd base while holding the ball or tag the batter-runner. Which was it?

[AtlUmpSteve]

I think you are overthinking this one. Yes, I understand the ball is always live; until you make it dead!!

I do not think anyone intends the dead ball appeal to mean that, if a team doesn't request time, you cannot accept the appeal. That returns us to the cause and reason for a dead ball appeal; to simplify the process, and move on. IMO, once the ball is in the circle in the pitcher's possession, and all runners have stopped at base, such that any further baserunning would now violate the LBR, the umpires are in a position where time can be granted. If a player then makes a dead ball appeal, you can call "Time" and honor that verbal appeal. Don't go looking for the nits of a) they didn't ask for "time" first, or b) making the player repeat a perfectly clear verbal appeal after you call "time", or even c) making a major production over calling "Time". When the game conditions are right, just go with it.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I think you are overthinking this one. Yes, I understand the ball is always live; until you make it dead!!

I do not think anyone intends the dead ball appeal to mean that, if a team doesn't request time, you cannot accept the appeal. That returns us to the cause and reason for a dead ball appeal; to simplify the process, and move on. IMO, once the ball is in the circle in the pitcher's possession, and all runners have stopped at base, such that any further baserunning would now violate the LBR, the umpires are in a position where time can be granted. If a player then makes a dead ball appeal, you can call "Time" and honor that verbal appeal. Don't go looking for the nits of a) they didn't ask for "time" first, or b) making the player repeat a perfectly clear verbal appeal after you call "time", or even c) making a major production over calling "Time". When the game conditions are right, just go with it.

I agree, but I don't see where anyone was looking for those "nits". My comment was analogous to yours, maybe not as well said, but to make the instructional point for all readers that the ump should call time and then listen.

[WestMichBlue]

No way am I calling time! The rules require that the defense make a play on the runner. They can throw the ball in to CF. They can throw it to 3B and the runner takes off back to second. The defense can make a mistake. Why should you protect the offense by killing the play.

Let the coach do that. The coach can request time to trap the runner and not take a chance on making a mistake. But that is not your job!

Also, according to another post most of you agreed that the LBR would not be applied if the runner tried to get back to 2B. Your reasoning was that the play was not over, so the LBR is not yet in effect.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

No way am I calling time! The rules require that the defense make a play on the runner. They can throw the ball in to CF. They can throw it to 3B and the runner takes off back to second. The defense can make a mistake. Why should you protect the offense by killing the play.

Let the coach do that. The coach can request time to trap the runner and not take a chance on making a mistake. But that is not your job!

Also, according to another post most of you agreed that the LBR would not be applied if the runner tried to get back to 2B. Your reasoning was that the play was not over, so the LBR is not yet in effect.

WMB

If it's apparent the pitcher is going to make an appeal, I'll kill the ball.

Nothing like a little preventive umpiring to avoid the sticky IP situations that will occur with pitchers of all age groups.