Hidden signals

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Do I take this to mean to do not approve of and/or do not use these kinds of signals?

I didn't say that at all, did I?

I'm not saying using such signals are wrong, but my problem with this is the possibility of conflict especially if the teams have picked up on them.

All of a sudden, you have a base umpire straining for help from the PU on a pulled foot assuming help is there to be had. On a ball in the dirt, you may also have a BU moving into position for a steal on that play and either not give the signal or make it so obvious it seems s/he is making the call from 80' away.

I have no problem with the signals, just that umpires should not be trained or become reliant on them to make the call.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I didn't say that at all, did I?

No, you didn't, but I did infer a hint of disapproval, which is why I asked. Thanks for clarifying.

[mcrowder]

We use the same signal in the field on a 3rd strike - but use it when (and if) PU looks at BU. It's not a "secret" from everyone, but it DOES look better than the alternatives even to those that see it (and most don't). I believe it (and the pulled foot mechanic we use) also facilitates getting the call right quickly, which can be an advantage. If coaches notice or know what we're doing, more power to them - it shows them we are working together to get the right call.

[blue]

One of the umps i work with, shows a closed fist, hand at his belly burron for a caught 3rd strike, and an open hand (fingers spread wide) at the same positon for an uncaught 3rd strike. I like it cause all I have to look for is an open or closed hand.

[SC Ump]

We would touch our nose, like in the sting, when we wanted our partner to glance out in the stands. This was to alert him to (1) a reviewer grading us, or (2) a cute mom in a good looking outfit.

Yes, I know... if we were paying attention to the game instead of the cute moms, we wouldn't have needed to signal the presents of a reviewer.

[mcrowder]

Your reviewers bring presents?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

We would touch our nose, like in the sting, when we wanted our partner to glance out in the stands. This was to alert him to (1) a reviewer grading us, or (2) a cute mom in a good looking outfit.

Yes, I know... if we were paying attention to the game instead of the cute moms, we wouldn't have needed to signal the presents of a reviewer.

Reminds me of a partner I was with years ago, who called time to stop a game. When asked why, he pointed to the adjoining walkway and said "girl watch".

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

We use the same signal in the field on a 3rd strike - but use it when (and if) PU looks at BU. It's not a "secret" from everyone, but it DOES look better than the alternatives even to those that see it (and most don't). I believe it (and the pulled foot mechanic we use) also facilitates getting the call right quickly, which can be an advantage. If coaches notice or know what we're doing, more power to them - it shows them we are working together to get the right call.

Which is fine until the umpire makes a call and a coach/player notices the partner giving an indication s/he saw something else.

The crew cannot win in this circumstance.

[mcrowder]

Mike - like I said, we only give the signal when partner (by looking) asks. I don't stand there pointing down or closing the fist on a close strike until I see PU look at me. I don't lift my foot at home until I see BU look at me.

It's almost a silent (and quicker way) to say "Do you have a pulled foot?!" or "Did that ball hit the ground?!"

And by looking for the signal, we trust that partner is going to go with it - I don't believe I've ever had an instance where partner asked (either signal), I gave the signal, and he went the other way. I can agree with you that it would be a problem if that happened.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Mike - like I said, we only give the signal when partner (by looking) asks. I don't stand there pointing down or closing the fist on a close strike until I see PU look at me. I don't lift my foot at home until I see BU look at me.

It's almost a silent (and quicker way) to say "Do you have a pulled foot?!" or "Did that ball hit the ground?!"

And by looking for the signal, we trust that partner is going to go with it - I don't believe I've ever had an instance where partner asked (either signal), I gave the signal, and he went the other way. I can agree with you that it would be a problem if that happened.

I've seen it happen. It can get ugly real quick and, like I said, the umpires are in a no-win situation and could have trouble with just about every call the remainder of that game. And, hopefully, it wasn't the front end of a DH.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Mike - like I said, we only give the signal when partner (by looking) asks. I don't stand there pointing down or closing the fist on a close strike until I see PU look at me. I don't lift my foot at home until I see BU look at me.

It's almost a silent (and quicker way) to say "Do you have a pulled foot?!" or "Did that ball hit the ground?!"

And by looking for the signal, we trust that partner is going to go with it - I don't believe I've ever had an instance where partner asked (either signal), I gave the signal, and he went the other way. I can agree with you that it would be a problem if that happened.

You're in the "B" or "C" position & there's a play at 1B that causes F3 to stretch, maybe a lot or maybe just a lean. So before you make your call you look over at the PU to see if he is standing on one foot. If he is then the BR is safe because F3 pulled her foot?

Is that a generally accepted signal in softball?

I've always called what I saw and IF asked I'll go for help, if I'm not 100% sure of my call. IMHO if you're using a lot of signals to verify with one another that you've made the correct call and the coach picks up on it then you'll have a lot of credibility issues. The coach might think that you can't get your own calls without a signal from your partner or you might become so dependent on your partner covering your butt that you won't hustle as much. Not saying that will happen for sure but it could, again IMHO.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Justme

So before you make your call you look over at the PU to see if he is standing on one foot.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Justme

I've always called what I saw and IF asked I'll go for help, if I'm not 100% sure of my call.

That is the method prescribed by ASA