10U ASA Question

[fastpitch]

Remember this is 10U and this happened to me Saturday and could have been a lot more exciting than it turned out. R1 steals home from 3B and crosses home plate. F3 has ball. R1 starts back to 3B at coaches' urging. Is she now liable to be put out on her way from the home plate area back towards 3B. What if she is near the dugout when she starts back? What if she enters the dugout?

[Dakota]

The thing to remember about 10U baserunning rules is...

Nothing changes except for the base that a baserunner is eligible to advance to. All other baserunning rules apply.

Once the runner has reached home, she is no longer in jepoardy of being tagged out (same as any other runner), but she will not be allowed to score. After the play, she will be placed back on 3B.

If she attempts to return to 3B on her own, when she is between home and 3B, she has again placed herself in jeopardy of being tagged.

[mcrowder]

Dakota, I disagree.

You are correct that the only change at 10U that applies here is that she can't score. But at any other age group, a runner cannot put themselves back on the basepaths once they've legally scored. Therefore this particular runner in 10U is not putting themselves back on the basepaths after they've legally scored, even if prompted by her coach. Consider the case of a 14U runner who runs from 3rd and scores, but her coach directs her to return to third because he mistakenly thinks the ball was caught. This runner cannot "unscore" if she does not have reason to return to third, and is not in jeopardy as she returns to third base.

The 10U runner in question was in jeopardy while she advanced toward home. But after scoring, she simply gets placed back on third by the umpire. She is not in jeopardy whether the umpire or the coach directs her to return.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Dakota, I disagree. ... But at any other age group, a runner cannot put themselves back on the basepaths once they've legally scored. ....

What about a runner who is returning to touch third?

[mcrowder]

If she is returning because she has a legitimate reason to return (left early, missed base, etc), then she IS liable to be put out on her way back.

But if it turns out she did not have legitimate reason to return, she cannot "unscore", and is not in jeopardy.

[tcblue13]

Why does F3 have the ball and why is the coach urging R1 to return to third. I think I am just missing something. (maybe my frontal lobe)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

The 10U runner in question was in jeopardy while she advanced toward home. But after scoring, she simply gets placed back on third by the umpire. She is not in jeopardy whether the umpire or the coach directs her to return.

Well, as much as I would like to agree with you, especially at the 10U level, I believe the statement above isn't true.

If it were, a runner could never return to 3B after touching home on a base left too early.

And even as ridiculous as it seems, since ASA has now ruled that a BR can reinstate the "force" (for lack of better words) at 1B if s/he passes the base going back toward home, I cannot see any other option on the given scenario than the runner placing themself in jeopardy by attempting to return to 3B.

[fastpitch]

It doesn't really matter who has the ball, just making a point that it is still in play and is not in the circle. The defense was confused, the 1B coach thought he knew what was going on. The play started out with R1 on 2B and R2 on 1B. They steal and the ball ends up in the OF so they advance an extra base at the 3B coach's urging. I just stood and watched as the ball was returned to the infield and the 1B coach started urging the runners to return. As it turned out the defense had no idea what to do and the defensive coach yelled at them to ask for time which I granted since no one was trying to make a play and the runners had by that time returned.

We have good responses but different answers to the original question. My question relates to R1 after she crosses home plate. At the time if she had been tagged while running back to 3B I would have called her out but am still not sure if it is the right call. Did she have to retouch home plate? I don't think she's out if she enters the dugout, just place her back on 3B. What if she runs back to 3B after almost entering the dugout.

[mcrowder]

Reinstating the force is a different issue, and deals with a runner who has not scored. A runner who has scored has a different status than a live runner.

Mike - let me ask it this way, in a higher level game. 14U, say. R1 on third, coming home on a squeeze. Bunt is popped up and R1 crosses the plate. F1 makes a diving attempt, but fails to catch the ball. 3BCoach yells at runner to return as he thought the ball was caught, and R1 retouches home and makes it 4-5 steps back toward third base before noticing umpire ruling safe on the no-catch by F1. F1 throws home and F2 tags runner. Do you have an out? Or is R1 simply not allowed to "unscore"?

2nd sitch - R1 on third, passed ball. R1 scores easily, but just barely touches the plate (which PU sees). Coaches and fans start yelling at the runner to touch home as F2 starts to tag her, and R1 sees her path to the plate blocked, so runs to third base and makes it safely. Where do you place R1? Does she score, or do you leave her on third.

I believe the answer to the first is that she is not out, and the 2nd is that she scores. If you agree to these, then the same logic applies to the runner in the OP - she has scored, and cannot reestablish herself as a runner, thus cannot create a situation where she can be tagged. the ONLY difference at 10U is that you simply return the runner to third base after "scoring". If there is a reason to treat the 10U runner differently than the 14U runner, please point me to a rule or POE, as I can find no reason to rule differently.

[Dakota]

The problem with your analysis, mcrowder, is that the 10U runner has NOT scored. She is still an active runner. But, since home plate is not a base that is "occupied", she is not in jeopardy after touching home unless she attempts to return to 3rd.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by fastpitch

At the time if she had been tagged while running back to 3B I would have called her out but am still not sure if it is the right call.

Unfortunately, ASA does not have a case play on this situation. I believe she is back in jeopardy, and can be tagged out.

Originally Posted by fastpitch

Did she have to retouch home plate?

This is interesting - is she subject to appeal if she did not touch home? I believe so. The defense would have to appeal the missed base, though.

Originally Posted by fastpitch

I don't think she's out if she enters the dugout, just place her back on 3B.

Correct. She is just not eligible to stay there.

Originally Posted by fastpitch

What if she runs back to 3B after almost entering the dugout.

Then she is merely back on 3rd.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Reinstating the force is a different issue, and deals with a runner who has not scored. A runner who has scored has a different status than a live runner.

The point is that the interpretation allows a runner who was protected from being retired (overrunning 1B) to be placed in jeopardy just by walking past the bag. I can see a runner returning to 1B after overrunning it and stops to take off a brace, shin/ankle guard or put on a jacket and be a step toward the plate even though she hasn't yet returned to 1B and a coach screaming to tag her and an umpire buying the coaches argument.

I disagree with the interp, but it is there in black and white and it isn't my position to ignore or contradict it.

[mcrowder]

Mike - I don't see that interp even vaguely applying to the situation described. That interp would not be valid for a scored runner that touched home plate on a force, and then proceeded back toward third base for some reason (which is the case in our OP sitch) - it's only valid for a runner that is still a live runner (which doesn't apply for a scored runner). And you didn't answer my questions about the older player in a similar situation.

Dakota, I respect your opinion to disagree, and admit that this is grey area no matter which way you rule. However, I maintain that this IS a runner who has scored, under the rule "Score a run when...". The superceding rule that disallows the run because this is a 10U runner does not give me anything to indicate that there is anything that could put this runner back in jeopardy. There are other rules that disallow runs on scored runners (force play on 3rd out, advantageous 4th out appeal, appeal on preceding runner for 3rd out, etc), but none of these place the runner in question into additional jeopardy - so I can see no analogous reason to determine that this 10U runner would be in jeopardy under any circumstance.

[fastpitch]

Interesting responses all, so the runner that steals an extra base where not allowed in 10U is subject to be put out when she returns during a live ball but the runner that crosses home plate is not. My understanding is that as long as they are in contact with the subsequent base they are not liable to be put out but if they return they are - given there is only 1 R on the subsequent base.

Mike Rohrabaugh
Atlanta, GA

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Mike - I don't see that interp even vaguely applying to the situation described. That interp would not be valid for a scored runner that touched home plate on a force, and then proceeded back toward third base for some reason (which is the case in our OP sitch) - it's only valid for a runner that is still a live runner (which doesn't apply for a scored runner). And you didn't answer my questions about the older player in a similar situation.

And I believe it very much applies to the situation. The general discussion is a runner having safely touched the base required in order to be safe. In both circumstances, the player is not required to maintain contact with the base to effect the benefit of succeeding.

Short of missing a base or leaving the base too soon at 3B, there is no, zero, nada, zilch, zippo, no reason for the runner to attempt to return to home or third base by either runner. However, ASA has determined that should the runner at first choose to return toward the plate, she is now in jeopardy. So, why wouldn't this apply to a runner coming home and for some strange and unknown reason head back toward third (assume with a sense of urgency, not just walking toward a 3rd base dugout.

BTW, speaking of scoring in ASA, please tell me why a player cannot touch 3rd base, realized s/he missed second, return and touch it and then run directly to the plate to score.