Interesting Bizarre decisions by Blue

[mcrowder]

I was watching a game - not in the area I UIC, and I don't have any idea about the abilities of these particular umpires. But their solution was truly unique (and surely protestable if anyone knew to bother).

R1 on 2nd, R2 on 1st, no outs. Ball hit to shallow CF. R1 rounds third, R2 heads for 2nd. F9 fires home. R2 scampers back to third base just as R1 arrives there, and F2 throws to F5. Here's where it gets fun.

Both runners are lying on their stomachs, with a hand on the bag. F5 steps on the bag. Umpires pause about 2 seconds and BU yells TIME! PU and BU huddle. F5 gives the ball to pitcher while they huddle - both coaches are out of their dugout, but not approaching umpires yet. The huddle breaks up, PU goes to say something to home manager, and BU goes to say something to away manager. Who knows what was said.

BU heads over to third base without making a call. PU is in the working area, looks at F1 and says, "Play Ball". I'm stunned at this point, as are the players. Umpires just stood there. Neither coach told his players what to do. Eventually, F1 throws to F5 - who again steps on the bag. I hear the word "appeal" coming from 3B dugout repeatedly, and F5 says something to BU. BU just stares at her.

FINALLY, F5 tags both runners and BU rules R2 out.

CRAZY stuff. Neither coach came out to complain, and the game went on.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

I was watching a game - not in the area I UIC, and I don't have any idea about the abilities of these particular umpires. But their solution was truly unique (and surely protestable if anyone knew to bother).

R1 on 2nd, R2 on 1st, no outs. Ball hit to shallow CF. R1 rounds third, R2 heads for 2nd. F9 fires home. R2 scampers back to third base just as R1 arrives there, and F2 throws to F5. Here's where it gets fun.

Both runners are lying on their stomachs, with a hand on the bag. F5 steps on the bag. Umpires pause about 2 seconds and BU yells TIME! PU and BU huddle. F5 gives the ball to pitcher while they huddle - both coaches are out of their dugout, but not approaching umpires yet. The huddle breaks up, PU goes to say something to home manager, and BU goes to say something to away manager. Who knows what was said.

BU heads over to third base without making a call. PU is in the working area, looks at F1 and says, "Play Ball". I'm stunned at this point, as are the players. Umpires just stood there. Neither coach told his players what to do. Eventually, F1 throws to F5 - who again steps on the bag. I hear the word "appeal" coming from 3B dugout repeatedly, and F5 says something to BU. BU just stares at her.

FINALLY, F5 tags both runners and BU rules R2 out.

CRAZY stuff. Neither coach came out to complain, and the game went on.

Why do the words "here's your sign" keep going through my head??

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Why do the words "here's your sign" keep going through my head??

Wouldn't make any difference, they probably couldn't read them anyway.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Umpires pause about 2 seconds and BU yells TIME!

The umpires obviously got themselves into a jam by doing this. I am impressed by their creativity in solving the problem. I hope I never have to be so creative.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

... and surely protestable if anyone knew to bother...

Just wondering how a protest committe would deal with this!

[NSABlue]

I wonder what was said to the coaches during the time out?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Just wondering how a protest committe would deal with this!

Speaking ASA and probably a couple other assns.

Since the umpires killed the play, no player can be tagged out. The umpires would have to return R2 to 2B and move on.

If there is anything the umpires should have done, it was "nothing" until the defense made the proper play or it was obvious they were going to make no play at all.

If protested, move R2 back to 2B and continue from that point.

[Al]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA and probably a couple other assns.

Since the umpires killed the play, no player can be tagged out. The umpires would have to return R2 to 2B and move on.

If there is anything the umpires should have done, it was "nothing" until the defense made the proper play or it was obvious they were going to make no play at all.

If protested, move R2 back to 2B and continue from that point.

Mike,

This situation is similar to a situation I had in a coach-pitch game last week. I learned about two on the same base situations from this forum when I posted a play I had in a t-ball game a few weeks earlier when the "two coaches from the pit" were mad because two were on the base at the same time and I didn't automatically call one out. But that play was different in that I had already called time before the extra runner arrived to 3rd base.

But in the coach-pitch game two runners ended up on 2nd base at the same time and no attempt was being made to tag the girl that didn't belong there. The only thing the defense did was stand with the ball between 2nd and 3rd base so a runner would not advance. But the runner that didn't belong there didn't attempt to go back to 1st and the fielder didn't seem to care and just stood there with the ball for several seconds. I called time and sent the one girl back to 1st. No coach, fan or assistant coach in the field said a word to me, but had they I would have been glad to explain what happened and why. Later, ...Al

[UmpireErnie]

Mike, while I agree with your interpretation, I can’t find it in the book. I mean, obviously when the umpire calls “TIME” runners have to return to the base last legally touched. But I think it is simply an implied rule. Perhaps it should be added to ASA 8-6/NFHS 8-5 “A Runner Must Return To Their Base”.

ASA 8-3-E/NFHS 8-3-7 deals with which runner has a right to the base when two runners occupy the same base. R2 was not forced to 3B. However, if R2 touched 3B before R1 got back to 3B then R2 owns the bag and R1 would be out if tagged. If the play is killed at this point (oops!) then the last base legally touched by both runners is 3B, and since by rule they can’t both be there R2 goes back rather than R1 moving forward. The premature dead ball call has saved the offense an almost certain out, they don’t get a bonus base on top of it!

I think the rule writers simply assume we will be smart enough not to call “TIME” for no reason when two runners are on the same base!

Ernie

[Smiley]

A runner cannot legally occupy a base legally occupied by another runner. R1 occupies 3rd until she attains the next base (scores).

[Andy]

This kind of reminds me of the old Harlem Globetrotter's trick:

A Globtrotter is about to make a wide open layup, but just before he shoots, calls for time out. Whistle blows, time out is granted, players start leaving the floor. The Globetrotter yells "time back in" and makes the layup.

It's like a "pause" button on the game! Stop play until you figure out what's happenning, then just instruct the players to resume from where they stopped.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by Smiley

A runner cannot legally occupy a base legally occupied by another runner. R1 occupies 3rd until she attains the next base (scores).

Thanks, Smiey! The light bulb came on.

For other readers, see ASA 8-3-B/NFHS 8-3-3. As Smiley says, R1 owns the base until she touches home or is forced off 3B, no matter who touches the base first.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

Mike, while I agree with your interpretation, I can’t find it in the book. I mean, obviously when the umpire calls “TIME” runners have to return to the base last legally touched. But I think it is simply an implied rule. Perhaps it should be added to ASA 8-6/NFHS 8-5 “A Runner Must Return To Their Base”.

Speaking ASA

You cannot find the order in which runners are to touch the bases, either, but we all know it is 1st, 2nd, 3rd, then home.

The book specifically notes which runner has the right to occupy the base. The defense is responsible to know how to retire a runner not in contact with the proper base.

I believe there may be a play in the case book (though on the LBR, it still prescribed the appropriate umpire action) and numerous posts on this board supporting my interpretation.

[Dakota]

There is an ASA case play (too lazy to look it up right now...) that if the defense is indifferent to the 2 runners on the base, the umpire is to call TIME and place the runners on their legal bases. So, the umpires placing the runners is not the issue here; it is the premature calling of TIME.

However, like an inadvertant whistle in football, the ball is still dead.

My guess on what the umpires told the coaches: "This was our error. We are going to resume play. Do not instruct your players. Let the players work it out."