Check out this play...

[Al]

I umpired one T-ball game tonight by myself. I came close to tossing one coach, and one of her assistant coaches was one for the books as well. Here's the play...Bases are loaded, no outs, and batter hits a hard roller towards the first base side of field. The girl playing 1st makes a good stop of the ball, picks up the ball and throws it towards 3rd. (I judged the ball to have been a throw to 3rd and not an attempt to the circle). But it bounced through the circle on it's way to the third baseman. (In our T-Ball the ball only needs to touch the circle for time to be called, unless the ball is going through the circle, when a play at a base is being attemped) The 3rd baseman picked the ball, ahead of the runner, but did not step on 3rd base, or tag the girl when she got there. The runner did not touch the base either. They were both standing next to the base and finally the runner stepped on 3rd BEFORE the fielded did. I seen it very clearly that the runners foot got to the base and she was NOT tagged prior to that, either. I called her safe and after a few seconds I called time because the runner made no attempt to advance to home, because the fielder was holding the ball right next to her and her base coach was telling her to stay there. Now after I called time the runner from 2nd who was now about half way to 3rd, runs to 3rd and gets on the base with the runner that I just called safe. Here's what the defending coach starts yelling... "The ball touched the circle before the original runner on 3rd made it to the half way line between 3rd and home. She has to go back to 3rd". And then says: "Plus the runner was tagged at 3rd and I also don't appreciate having two runners on a base at the same time and not have one of them called out". While she is making it clear to anyone who will listen that I made a couple of bad calls I calmly said to her the bases were loaded coach. I can't send the lead runner back to 3rd base or I will have to send all runners back and the batter will end up back at home plate! She then realized she was wrong, but then started to say "well, what about two runners on the base at the same time"? I said did you not hear me say "time" when the runner was not making any attemp for several seconds to advance to home plate? After I call time I need to put the runners in the proper places. That's why I sent her back to 2nd and the batter/runner, who was half way to 2nd, back to 1st.

Well, thinking that she now understood I went back to the plate and said "play ball". At that time her assistant said to me "you can't have two runners on the same base and not have an out". That's when I said to the assistant caoch I do not want to hear anymore about it. I explained it to your head coach, and let's more on. I don't want you to disrespect me in front of the kids and I won't let it continue. Then the assistant coach said "ok". And the game ended shortly thereafter. Her team lost by two runs.

Nothin' like fun at the ole' ball park... Al

[NSABlue]

Al,
I realize this is only T-Ball but it's always a good time to educate the coaches on the rules of the game.

As for having two players on a base at the same time while the ball is live. This is perfectly legal. As long as the following runner does not physically pass the preceeding runner, there is no violation. The defense must tag the runner who is not entitled to the base to record an out. Nothing is automatic.

Now, which runner is entitled to the base?

The preceeding runner is entitled to the base unless he/she is forced to advance. In your situation, the runner coming from 2nd base on the original play (the preceeding runner) is entitled to the base because she is not forced to advance any further than third base. If the following runner advanced to third and the ball was still live, the defense would have to tag her to record the out.

All of this is moot in your situation since you had called "time".

Ain't T-ball fun??

[Al]

Originally Posted by NSABlue

Al,
I realize this is only T-Ball but it's always a good time to educate the coaches on the rules of the game.

As for having two players on a base at the same time while the ball is live. This is perfectly legal. As long as the following runner does not physically pass the preceeding runner, there is no violation. The defense must tag the runner who is not entitled to the base to record an out. Nothing is automatic.

Now, which runner is entitled to the base?

The preceeding runner is entitled to the base unless he/she is forced to advance. In your situation, the runner coming from 2nd base on the original play (the preceeding runner) is entitled to the base because she is not forced to advance any further than third base. If the following runner advanced to third and the ball was still live, the defense would have to tag her to record the out.

All of this is moot in your situation since you had called "time".

Ain't T-ball fun??

Thanks sir,

Excellent! It's a sad day when coaches and fans act worse than the children. In this same game I had one grandfather say to me "are we going to have two kids standing on 2nd base next"? I just smiled and said: "not if the coaches teach the kids to listen to the umpire when he calls time and play is dead". I'm a grandfather myself and I know the emotions that come, but I don't understand them being so blinded by emotion that they don't realize that they are doing more damage than good when they try to protect their own, against "evil umpires". Of course the same grandparent would be telling me great call ump if the call were against the other team.

You're correct... "Aint T-ball fun?? I see what one of the umpires meant by it being easier to umpire high school players than the youth players. Those coaches in higher play pretty much know the rules. ...Thanks for the great help! ...Al

[Dakota]

Gereral rule of thumb: the younger the players, the more obnoxious and uninformed the fans and coaches.

Think of it this way: they (fans and coaches) need to learn the game, too, and learn (in some cases) how to behave. Unfortunately, in the little kid's game, the education burden seems to fall all too often on the umpire.

[NSABlue]

Those coaches in higher play pretty much know the rules. ...Thanks for the great help! ...Al[/QUOTE][/B]
Al,
This is a dangerous assumption!!

T-Ball parents and coaches are the most "enthusiastic". For many, it's the first time the little ones are involved in competetive sports and the adults can really go overboard. If you're going to umpire at this level, you need to be as familiar with the rule book as possible. It will fall on you to educate the coaches more times than not.

In my experience, High school coaches are the worst when it comes to knowing the rules. Many of them are teachers that coach a team for the extra $ but never open a rule book. I have umpired high school ball for many years and it never ceases to amaze me about what high school coaches think.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NSABlue

In my experience, High school coaches are the worst when it comes to knowing the rules. Many of them are teachers that coach a team for the extra $ but never open a rule book. I have umpired high school ball for many years and it never ceases to amaze me about what high school coaches think.

This may be true, but it is my experience that HS coaches are, as a group, the most respectful of the umpires. I get very little grief from HS coaches. This does not mean they are always pleased with my calls, but they know how to handle themselves, by and large.

[fastpitch]

I'm surprised by the rule of - touch the circle - I would hope they would have 1 player capable of making a catch - says something about the level of coaching for the league - our local leagues have a rule (8U and 6U) of must make an overhand throw and not ground the ball to get an out or call them safe - try calling that one consistently among umpires.

[WestMichBlue]

For the life of me I cannot comprehend having umpires for T-Ball. For a League to take themselves that seriously is, IMO, just asking for trouble.

Half the kids just got out of kindergarten! Around here they are all butterfly chasers! The coaches are on the field running around trying to keep the game going and making all the calls. The whole teams bats, and when they are done they come in and the next team bats. When the batter runs to 3B everyone laughs and the coach simple picks the little type up and carries him over to 1B.

50% to 60% of those kids will never play at the 8 - 9 - 10 level; it's nothing more than a playground activity that should be all fun! (And the adults should consider themselves playground supervisors - not coaches.)

WMB

[fastpitch]

I totally agree with your statement all for fun but not sure about the theme - we not only have skilled TBallers in Gwinnett, Metro ATL, at the end of the season we have Tball all stars that play in an all star tournament. We do have a 4U (some 5 year olds) baseball Rookie league where there are no umpires, no scorekeeping, etc that a few of the girls participate in. By the end of the spring season TBallers are getting outs on thrown balls at more than one base, and yes, we use 2 umpires for all TBall games. It's a lot of fun and action for the kids and coach/parents are with them in the outfield for those butterfly chasers to keep them safe because there's always a few girls on each team that will hit line drives out there. Some local parks also are doing 1 or 2 innings of kid pitch in 8U - we call it PeeWee plus - means you get extra pay for catching the pitches with your gear

[NSABlue]

This may be true, but it is my experience that HS coaches are, as a group, the most respectful of the umpires. I get very little grief from HS coaches. This does not mean they are always pleased with my calls, but they know how to handle themselves, by and large.
Dakota,

I fully agree with your statement about being respectful. It does not, however, change my opinion about rules knowledge!

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by NSABlue

This may be true, but it is my experience that HS coaches are, as a group, the most respectful of the umpires. I get very little grief from HS coaches. This does not mean they are always pleased with my calls, but they know how to handle themselves, by and large.
Dakota,

I fully agree with your statement about being respectful. It does not, however, change my opinion about rules knowledge!

Around these parts, I would say that the vast majority of the HS coaches have a very good grasp on the rules of the game. Of course, there are always those that do as little as possible, but they are far and away the minority.

[Al]

Originally Posted by fastpitch

I'm surprised by the rule of - touch the circle - I would hope they would have 1 player capable of making a catch - says something about the level of coaching for the league - our local leagues have a rule (8U and 6U) of must make an overhand throw and not ground the ball to get an out or call them safe - try calling that one consistently among umpires.

Fastpitch,

To have a rule where control of the ball in the circle is required (as was tried at one time) leads to just about every hit ball becoming a homerun, (especially early in the season) because even some of the best players can't catch a ball that's thrown way off line to where they are standing in the circle. On the other hand, to have a rule that the ball only needs to break the plane of the circle (as our rules used to be at one time) makes for a lot of time out calls where a kid just throws the ball in the general direction of the circle. When the ball just has to pass over the edge of the circle the kids don't have as much of an incentive to make aimed throws. When I was coach of a T-ball team (Lady Bugs) we taught them "SHOW IT, THROW IT" and after working with them for a few weeks many were making pretty straight throws, but still control of the ball in the circle was not working too well. FWIW, I think once the kids reach the 8/under coach pitch level then the control of the ball in the circle rule should be used. That's what we do here in Crossville TN and it works fine. In T-ball having a rule where the ball much only touch within the circle works well too.

Having no umpire for T-Ball would be a mistake IMO. I think there are too many coaches like the two that I spoke of earlier. Eventually the other coaches would get tired of letting coaches like those two run the show, especially if they know or learn the rules in a given circumstance. ...Thanks fastpitch, ...Al