Umpire putting Batter/Runner in jeopardy?

[Dakota]

First of all, I do not have a problem with your statement that it is up to the PU whether to honor the request to go for help. If you know you nailed the call, stand by it. No problem.

I took the OP's question to be asking about whether ASA 10-6-C would apply to this situation. In general, no, it does not (IMO) for the reasons I have already stated.

Your example of the FOUL call that is not a FOUL is not apples and apples, since in the case of the BR, she has a pretty good idea whether or not she checked in time or if she got away with one WRT the PU's call. The runner in your situation has no earthly idea whether or not it was a foul ball. She only has the call from the umpire.

There is also a difference in your "batter is out" scenario in that the PU is emphatically re-emphasizing his call.

I both of those situations, I can see applying 10-6-C to rectify the reversed calls placing the runners in jeopardy.

[DaveASA/FED]

Was watching a college SB game on ESPN2 lastnight, Michigan and UCLA (I think, it was late, I was tired) and with 2 strikes the batter check swings, catcher misses the ball, PU calls it a strike and they get BR out at 1st. Looking at the replay it was close, but looked to be checked short of what I would consider a swing (which my opinion doesn't matter) but made me wonder if he went ahead and called a strike to eliminate a situation where he had to ask for help (I think it is required in NCAA isn't it?) and it might have lead to the exact situation we are discussing here. Not implying anything, don't even remember the PU's name, but made me think of this thread!

[MNBlue]

Originally posted by MNBlue
NFHS rules

I WOULD not go to my partner. I feel that sometimes you have to live with your calls, good or bad. By going to my partner, I am putting the BR in jeopardy for not making a call for whatever reason I did not make. Not fair - probably. But what is the greater unfairness.

I have had the pleasure to work with some people who would call the pitch a strike and let the chips fall where they may, since that gives everyone an equal opportunity to complete the play. My feeling is - I called the pitch a ball because I thought it was a ball. I am not now going to put the BR in jeopardy to cover up a call I may have kicked. Sometimes, I have to be the fall guy.

To the defensive coach: Coach, I called it a ball and I am sticking with my call. In NFHS rules, I don't HAVE to go to my partner for help. Life happens.

This same philosopy. I understand the idea, I just don't agree with it. NCAA is a little different than NFHS, since they require the PU get help when requested, and NFHS gives the PU discretion.

[Skahtboi]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MNBlue

This same philosopy. I understand the idea, I just don't agree with it. NCAA is a little different than NFHS, since they require the PU get help when requested, and NFHS gives the PU discretion.

From the NFHS Umpires Manual:

"If the umpire calls the pitch a ball and the catcher requests help, ask for it."

This seems pretty black and white to me.

[shipwreck]

During HS ball, I routinely work with the same partner. We have it worked out that whoever is PU will always go to their partner when requested. One difference though, if as PU we know we nailed it correctly, we will take off our mask and ask our partner. If on the other hand we aren't for sure and really do want help we will do the same but put their name on the question first. As BU if we hear our name called on this we will give them an honest call, what we saw. If no name is heard we just mirror our partner's call. Even if you don't work with the same partner very often you could go over this with them before the game. Dave

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by shipwreck
During HS ball, I routinely work with the same partner. We have it worked out that whoever is PU will always go to their partner when requested. One difference though, if as PU we know we nailed it correctly, we will take off our mask and ask our partner. If on the other hand we aren't for sure and really do want help we will do the same but put their name on the question first. As BU if we hear our name called on this we will give them an honest call, what we saw. If no name is heard we just mirror our partner's call. Even if you don't work with the same partner very often you could go over this with them before the game. Dave

If you are the BU, you should call what you saw, not what your partner wants. Anything else, like this special code you mention, IMO, is just plain wrong.

[mcrowder]

Kind of odd to work out this code so that you can fool observers into thinking you are going by the book, instead of actually going by the suggestions of the rulesmakers, isn't it?

If PU is not going to truly ask, don't ask. Don't make up this nonsense just for show.

[shipwreck]

Why is it that evertime I make a suggestion on ways I do things many have to act like everything they do is just fine but my ways are absurd? I don't agree with everything you say but I am sure not going to slam you. Someone noted previously that by the BU overruling the PU, sometimes you can put the batter-runner in jeopardy. I was just stating how we avoid some mistakes. I guess I better keep my thoughts to myself. Dave

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by shipwreck
Why is it that evertime I make a suggestion on ways I do things many have to act like everything they do is just fine but my ways are absurd? I don't agree with everything you say but I am sure not going to slam you. Someone noted previously that by the BU overruling the PU, sometimes you can put the batter-runner in jeopardy. I was just stating how we avoid some mistakes. I guess I better keep my thoughts to myself. Dave

Dave, no one is "slamming" you, from what I see. What we are saying is that we, as arbiters of the game, should go by the book and call em like we see em. We should never "mirror" our partner's call just to help him save face, or for any other reason. If we are not honest, and make the call honestly as we see it, then we are doing a disservice to the game and an injustice to its players, fans and coaches.

[Dakota]

Actually, Dave, this "secret code" regarding the check swing "appeal" is fairly commonly used, and so is the reation to it from those who dislike it (so don't take it so personally).

When I have the bases with an unfamiliar partner, I tell them that if they ask, I'll respond with what I saw; if they want to stick with their call, don't ask.

[Justme]

Guess I'm going to get 'slamned' too.

When I'm working a HS softball game and I see the ball hit the ground or get past F2 on a check swing (when there are 2 strikes) I do not change the call from a ball to a strike when asked. Sometimes changing the call causes more problems than it solves. My partner doesn't have to use a secret code, I just don't change the ball call.

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by Justme
Guess I'm going to get 'slamned' too.

When I'm working a HS softball game and I see the ball hit the ground or get past F2 on a check swing (when there are 2 strikes) I do not change the call from a ball to a strike when asked. Sometimes changing the call causes more problems than it solves. My partner doesn't have to use a secret code, I just don't change the ball call.

You don't change the ball call, even if you clearly see the batter offer at the pitch??? Do you ever worry what that might do to your integrity when the coaches figure out that you don't want to make the tough call?

I don't understand why this is so difficult. If you feel the batter went for the pitch, why not call it? Especially in the higher levels of ball, such as HS and college, where the players and coaches know the risks.

[mcrowder]

Didn't mean to slam anyone. I just think that if you're going to not really ask for BR's opinion, you are being more honest if you simply don't ask than if you make up a system so that you look like you ask, but aren't really asking. JMHO.

The way we handle it (and it could be perceived as wrong by some as well) is on iffy calls where immediate input is necessary, we (PU's) will ask immediately without waiting for F2 to ask us to get help. We cover this in pregame as well so that BU is ready for it. PU will call it as they see it, but immediately point to BU, who will immediately answer. This clears up any chance of us A) getting the wrong call, or B) jeopardizing either runner or defense.

[bkbjones]

Originally posted by DaveASA/FED
Was watching a college SB game on ESPN2 lastnight, Michigan and UCLA (I think, it was late, I was tired) and with 2 strikes the batter check swings, catcher misses the ball, PU calls it a strike and they get BR out at 1st. Looking at the replay it was close, but looked to be checked short of what I would consider a swing (which my opinion doesn't matter) but made me wonder if he went ahead and called a strike to eliminate a situation where he had to ask for help (I think it is required in NCAA isn't it?) and it might have lead to the exact situation we are discussing here. Not implying anything, don't even remember the PU's name, but made me think of this thread!

It was Willie Newman. had the honor of working a couple games last summer with Willie. Had a sitch much like this in one of our games, he handled the same way.

IMHO, if you call it a ball and you are asked to get help, then go ahead and ask - even if the result does put the B/R in jeopardy. It's NOT our fault the b/r is now in jeopardy. In NFHS you have no choice, as the book says to do it. If the b/r is now an easy out, not our fault. Besides, it has been my experience that you'll hear far more chirping about not asking for help than the trouble caused by asking for help, having your partner ring 'er up, and the resultant out.

[Justme]

Originally posted by Skahtboi

You don't change the ball call, even if you clearly see the batter offer at the pitch??? Do you ever worry what that might do to your integrity when the coaches figure out that you don't want to make the tough call?

I don't understand why this is so difficult. If you feel the batter went for the pitch, why not call it? Especially in the higher levels of ball, such as HS and college, where the players and coaches know the risks.

I guess I'm lucky (and honored) to work with some very experienced umpires both in softball & baseball (a lot of them work both). I have not seen, at least not in many years, one of them miss an obvious checked strike. But to be honest, if they did miss one, and everyone in the house saw it but my partner, then yes, I'd have to change the call if asked. But hopefully, the batter would know it too and be running hard for 1B. But if it's marginal I don't change the call in a 2 strike situation when the ball is on the ground, even if I would have with no/one strike.

Did s/he go? It's a judgment call for the BU right? If the defensive even thinks it's close what are they going to say when you don't change the call? Nice call Blue? Of course not. In this situation they never think you make the tough calls. But just go over and ask the offensive coach :-).

That's why I really like the baseball mechanic that gets me into trouble on this board when I mention it. It eliminates this problem.