live ball appeal?

[tzme415]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

To answer your original question, as long as I've known.

Get your ASA book and check out the definition of "force out". For a player to be "forced" the batter must become the batter-runner. The force is only removed from a runner when the BR or a trailing runner is put out.

So, it is impossible to have a "force out" on any fly ball/line drive that is caught as that removes the force of all runners on base.

Sorry I wasn't clear -- the first two questions I was asking about the original situation - which by the way the play at home was a force out as the bases were loaded. But thanks for not jumping on me too hard

Just so I understand, if the catcher missed the tag, but the runner went passed the base without touching it, then the catcher would only have to say something like 'The runner missed the base' and we would count that as a live ball appeal and give the out.

[mcrowder]

As long as the runner was not trying to get back to the base. if he/she was, there has to be a tag.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally posted by mcrowder
As long as the runner was not trying to get back to the base. if he/she was, there has to be a tag.

What rule supports that statement? If there is, I can't find it. A live ball appeal can be made by an infielder touching the base OR tagging the runner, on either a missed base or a base left too soon on a caught fly ball.

Referencing ASA 8-7.F through I, and Effect (2), and POE 1B, there is no limitation on which prescribed method must be used; either must be honored as a live ball appeal as long as it is understood that the fielder is making an appeal. The singular exception requiring a tag of the runner is H, making an attempt to second base after legally overrunning first.

NCAA 7-1.b.1(b) states either method of live ball appeal "providing she is still on the playing field, and indicating to the umpire what is being appealed (if necessary)." And, the standard repetitive redundancies at 12-8a, 12-8c, 12-25a, 12-26 EFFECT a-c, notes 1 & 2. The noted two exceptions in that litany are the same making an attempt to second, and if the base missed is one to which she is not forced; in these two cases, the runner must be tagged (providing she is ......); otherwise a dead ball appeal must (apparently) be used.

NFHS 8-6 Articles 6-9 and Penalty (2) is even less specific, and must therefore be less restrictive in the manner of "properly appealed during a live ball".

Help me with this, if there is a rule or written softball interpretation I am missing; in general, I see no general requirement to tag a returning runner except as noted above.

Note to Mike Rowe: I also noticed another discrepancy in the ASA rulebook while referencing this thread. The rule 8-7.F requires an infielder to make a live ball appeal, while the POE states any fielder. My understanding was that an infielder (including pitcher and catcher) needed to make a dead ball appeal, while even outfielders could make live ball appeals (after all, why would we limit the legal means to tag a runner or tag a base during live play?).

[Edited by AtlUmpSteve on Feb 14th, 2006 at 11:12 AM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by tzme415


Just so I understand, if the catcher missed the tag, but the runner went passed the base without touching it, then the catcher would only have to say something like 'The runner missed the base' and we would count that as a live ball appeal and give the out. [/B]

No, but this is a call where there is more than just a simple ruling.

This involves mechanics, astute judgment and knowledge of the rules that just cannot be learned on a message board, but I'll try.

Speaking ASA

In the scenario above, as the umpire, I observe the play and hesitate, by design. If the catcher immediately goes after the runner and/or the runner immediately reacts and attempts to return to the plate, I allow the play to continue and make the appropriate ruling.

If neither player reacts in the manner described above, I give a crisp safe call with the signal. At that point, if the defender with the ball touches the plate or tags the runner (prior to the runner touching the plate) after or during the live ball appeal, then the runner is ruled out on the live ball appeal. A live ball appeal requires action on behalf of the defense, not just a verbal request.

If there are other runners, and there is no longer any obvious play, time is called or the defense can request time. Once the ball is dead, the runner may return and touch the plate as long as they have not entered DBT. As the umpire, you must allow this to happen before accepting the appeal should the runner do this simultaneously with a pending appeal. If any defender in the infield requests a dead ball appeal and the runner is in DBT or has made no effort to return to touch the plate, I would accept the appeal and rule the runner out for missing the plate.

Hope that helps.

[tzme415]

Mike,

The way you just described is the way I had always thought it was done, but the way I was reading the thread made it sound like I had been doing it wrong or at least not allowing for the live ball appeal. Since I had been unable to umpire for 7 years before coming back last year, I thought maybe I had forgotten the mechanic or things had changed.

Thank you for clarifying.

[umpharp]

Thanks for all the inputs. I think that live ball appeals are often overlooked with the exception of throwing the ball back to a base that a runner left too early. Some players and coaches don't even know that this is an appeal.
On the orginal play, I was BU. The PU did not honor an appeal which was correct, but he didn't tell me until after the game was over that the runner missed home. Neither team made any fuss about anything on the play.