Correcting Blue's rules mis-interpretations

[reccer]

AltUmpSteve said:

....our job is to get the calls right, within acceptable protocol; and if a coach does his job right......

I'm okay with waiting on a coach to point out the ball was on the ground or she didn't have her foot on bag, etc., before the Blues confer to get it right, but I do have a problem with a Blue allowing an obvious mis-interpretation of the rules by another Blue without speaking up.

2 examples (same old Blue both Pony all-star games-- this might be part of the problem.)

I'm on defense, offense has 2 runners on, batter hits foul ball back to screen. Catcher throws back to pitcher who misses ball and it winds up in center. Both runners run home and Blue counts them. I said to PU it was a foul ball. He explained once my pitcher missed the throw it was a live ball. I asked him to get help. He conferred with BU. BU came over to me and said both runners scored. I've got the AFLAC duck look on my face as I head back to my bucket then I paused and asked in a voice the whole county could here about foul balls down left field foul line that are heaved back to the pitcher are they live balls too? At this point BU comes back to me and whispers that "he's going to fix it. The PU is supposed to be a big deal in Pony and he (younger BU) did not want to correct him but what he (PU) was doing was just plain wrong." So both re-conferred and runners were returned to the bases.

Second example, (six years later-- I have 3 daughters) same old Blue, he's BU this time. Opposing coach motions to Blue about my pitcher. Sure enough, next pitch he calls illegal. I asked why. "Because she has to have both feet on pitchers plate." I said this is Pony not ASA both feet don't have to be on plate, go get help. He heads, not to his partner, but to the Pony field director (who is outside the fence). They confer, and agree, illegal pitch. After hearing that, I go into Lou Pinella mode and PU who is half my age and twice my size orders me back into dugout and announces in a loud voice that "he is in charge of this field and that pitchers only need 1 foot on pitchers plate."

2 points:

1. When your partner mis-interprets a rule, don't compromise your own integrity and go along/cover for his mistake.

2. How about you Blues correcting these type of rules mis-interpretations without the coaches having to get involved? Football and basketball fix it.

[Justme]

Originally posted by reccer
AltUmpSteve said:

....our job is to get the calls right, within acceptable protocol; and if a coach does his job right......

I'm okay with waiting on a coach to point out the ball was on the ground or she didn't have her foot on bag, etc., before the Blues confer to get it right, but I do have a problem with a Blue allowing an obvious mis-interpretation of the rules by another Blue without speaking up.

2 examples (same old Blue both Pony all-star games-- this might be part of the problem.)

I'm on defense, offense has 2 runners on, batter hits foul ball back to screen. Catcher throws back to pitcher who misses ball and it winds up in center. Both runners run home and Blue counts them. I said to PU it was a foul ball. He explained once my pitcher missed the throw it was a live ball. I asked him to get help. He conferred with BU. BU came over to me and said both runners scored. I've got the AFLAC duck look on my face as I head back to my bucket then I paused and asked in a voice the whole county could here about foul balls down left field foul line that are heaved back to the pitcher are they live balls too? At this point BU comes back to me and whispers that "he's going to fix it. The PU is supposed to be a big deal in Pony and he (younger BU) did not want to correct him but what he (PU) was doing was just plain wrong." So both re-conferred and runners were returned to the bases.

Second example, (six years later-- I have 3 daughters) same old Blue, he's BU this time. Opposing coach motions to Blue about my pitcher. Sure enough, next pitch he calls illegal. I asked why. "Because she has to have both feet on pitchers plate." I said this is Pony not ASA both feet don't have to be on plate, go get help. He heads, not to his partner, but to the Pony field director (who is outside the fence). They confer, and agree, illegal pitch. After hearing that, I go into Lou Pinella mode and PU who is half my age and twice my size orders me back into dugout and announces in a loud voice that "he is in charge of this field and that pitchers only need 1 foot on pitchers plate."

2 points:

1. When your partner mis-interprets a rule, don't compromise your own integrity and go along/cover for his mistake.

2. How about you Blues correcting these type of rules mis-interpretations without the coaches having to get involved? Football and basketball fix it.

Both of your points are good ones!

My job as an umpire is to always get the call right and that is the only protocol.

1. When my partner misinterprets a rule I always meet with him to correct it immediately....and I expect him to do the same with me. I do not want the coach coming to me to explain the rules, it's my job to know the rules and apply them correctly. One thing I do not want is a protested game especially when it could have been easily prevented.

2. My fellow umpires out there, don't wait for a coach to point out that you have misinterpreted a rule...fix it yourself....ASAP. Don't wait for a coach to point out that you have kicked a call, if you see it fix it and when your partner kicks a call go to him, let him know what you have and give him the info necessary to fix it, if possible.

This is not about umpire egos, it's about the game...get it right!

[CelticNHBlue]

1. When your partner mis-interprets a rule, don't compromise your own integrity and go along/cover for his mistake.

I will be the first to admit that when I was in my early years (and I was 13 when I started) I had great difficulty over-ruling my partner (typically my parents' age). However, I learned quickly to overcome that issue, even at an early age. But it can be difficult and even intimidating to work with experienced partners, whom you may not know very well, which makes it difficult to overrule him/her even in a private conference. This would be inexcusable for an experienced veteran.

2. How about you Blues correcting these type of rules mis-interpretations without the coaches having to get involved? Football and basketball fix it.

There is no reason that we can not get together and fix this. Just as in these other sports, if an umpire believes that his partner has misinterpreted a rule, he should request a conference to review the rule interpretation to ensure the correct call.

...but I do have a problem with a Blue allowing an obvious mis-interpretation of the rules by another Blue without speaking up.

In any case, these corrections can not be made until the play is over (just like the other sports) and should not occur without an appropriate conference. All you can do follow the rules provided to correct the action.


It sounds to me, from your post and the two situations, that you ran into an inexperienced umpire not wanting to rub someone the wrong way and affect his future potential assignments. Unfortunately, this happens but that does not make it the rule when it is actually the exception. For each of the two examples you have provided, there are several where the situation was handled properly and professionally.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Justme


My job as an umpire is to always get the call right and that is the only protocol.

Funny you should use that word.

1. When my partner misinterprets a rule I always meet with him to correct it immediately....and I expect him to do the same with me. I do not want the coach coming to me to explain the rules, it's my job to know the rules and apply them correctly. One thing I do not want is a protested game especially when it could have been easily prevented.

To start, you shouldn't be talking to the coach about another umpire's call. Yes, it is the umpire's job to know and apply the rules. Would you really want someone who believes themselves to be correct, to stop the game every time they believe you are not? What happens when an umpire stops the game and turns out to be wrong? S/he just as well leave at the point as all credibility is lost.

2. My fellow umpires out there, don't wait for a coach to point out that you have misinterpreted a rule...fix it yourself....ASAP. Don't wait for a coach to point out that you have kicked a call, if you see it fix it and when your partner kicks a call go to him, let him know what you have and give him the info necessary to fix it, if possible.

And when you are wrong? What are you going to do when your partner tells you to return to your position or leave the field? Don't laugh, seen it done.

This is not about umpire egos, it's about the game...get it right!

There is a protocol in place for a reason. Ignore it and you are not doing your job. There is also a protocol in place to provide for relief when a team believes a rule was misapplied. That is the coach's job.

I'm not saying to not correct a possible problem, but there is a system in place to accommodate such a matter. There are also ways through umpire communication to manipulate a situation without bringing specific attention to a problem.

[AtlUmpSteve]

In rec ball, I may well stop a game, as a senior official in my area, to turn a situation on the field into a "learning moment". That is to benefit the newer umpires with whom I am working, and the players and coaches, who also need to understand what the correct ruling is, and how and when to talk to an umpire who may have misapplied a rule.

In tournaments, championship play, high school, or college, that isn't going to happen. Just like I am not going to point out batting out of order, or an unreported sub, the coach has a responsibility to know what is going on, know the rules, and how and when to approach an umpire (what I taught him in a rec game, if he paid any attention). More than enough claim to know, and claim to know how we should do our job; it's their job, and they need to do it, or their team gets the result. Their problem, not ours.

If asked between innings, or after the game, I will certainly make sure my partner is corrected. And, I may be the one who is wrong, so I will most often look it up before commenting after a game. I find that is a great way to approach your partner; to look it up in my partner's presence, and when you are asked what you looking up, to indicate you thought the rule was different, and that you are looking it up to correct your misunderstanding. Depending on the situation or relationship, the correction or conversation may go through a third party, so that protocol is respected.

[Edited by AtlUmpSteve on Dec 20th, 2005 at 06:25 PM]

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by reccer
...our job is to get the calls right, within acceptable protocol; and if a coach does his job right...

I understand the frustration from your examples, especially the second where the situation was discussed and up-held by the Pony field director. (From your response I presume it was improperly up-held; I do not do Pony and would not know.)

I'm interested in what the outcome was when prior to the next pitch, you notified the PU that you were protesting the misapplication of the rules. Did the protest committee overturn the rulings?

[reccer]

PU took charge when he saw I was about to go postal. He let the old BU and the old field director know that the pitcher was not using an illegal delivery. He did this in a very loud voice so that all could hear.

Neither the BU or the director or the opposing coach argued with him so the game continued with my pitcher using "Pony style."

[TexBlue]

reccer

Where does your team play? I have done some PONY ball and the field director should never have anything to do with action or decisions inside the fence, until a protest takes place.

If you'll email me at [email protected]
I can probably give you some insight to the situation, or at least make it known to the Division Softball Director whose daughter was on my daughter's team.

I would email you, but the features have been turned off for some reason and I can't see your profile or email addres.

In the first scenario, I can understand why a newer umpire might be intimidated by a senior umpires. I don't approve of it, I just understand it. If he knows the rules and is sure of it, he needs to keep talking until the right decision is made, for the girls.

I have discovered over the years it doesn't matter what governing body you are playing under, you'll find umpires that are there for the money and don't care how good a job they do. It's a fact of life. If I work with people like that, I'll try to quietly talk to them so no one can hear our conversation and explain the correct rule to them and leave it to them to make the right decision. If I fail to do that, there is always the protest that can be made. I know that if I have a "brain fart" I want my partner to help me out immediately, but in a low key, discreet manner. I think all of us will admit we blow a rule once in awhile and as soon as we are asked about it, we know we did. Gotta get it right for the girls.

By the way "....going postal ....." has never won any brownie points on any field I've ever called on.

[Justme]

From the responses to my comment it appears that in softball rather than correct a rule mis-interpretation you wait for a coach the "catch you" then you correct it? Am I understanding you all? I'm new to softball umpiring so I want to learn.

In the baseball world, where I have spent 20+ years umpiring youth to college ball, we are taught to get together and correct rule mis-interpretations. In fact for the past few years it has been suggested (and required) that even in some cases of 'kicked' calls the other umpire (or umpires) should approach the umpire making the call 'unsolicited' if they have information that might help him/her make the correct call (in the 2004 & 2005 D1 umpire's championship guide). Of course in the case of a kicked call no one can over rule the umpire making the call because if it isn't a rule mis-interp then it's a judgment call. The umpire making the call is the one that can change it....again this is on judgment calls.

Is it different in softball?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Justme
From the responses to my comment it appears that in softball rather than correct a rule mis-interpretation you wait for a coach the "catch you" then you correct it? Am I understanding you all? I'm new to softball umpiring so I want to learn.

In the baseball world, where I have spent 20+ years umpiring youth to college ball, we are taught to get together and correct rule mis-interpretations. In fact for the past few years it has been suggested (and required) that even in some cases of 'kicked' calls the other umpire (or umpires) should approach the umpire making the call 'unsolicited' if they have information that might help him/her make the correct call (in the 2004 & 2005 D1 umpire's championship guide). Of course in the case of a kicked call no one can over rule the umpire making the call because if it isn't a rule mis-interp then it's a judgment call. The umpire making the call is the one that can change it....again this is on judgment calls.

Is it different in softball?

In softball, it is ALWAYS that the umpire making the call is the only one that can change it, not just on judgment calls.

And there are many in baseball which will tell you it's taboo to ask for help on a judgment call if there was the possibility they were blocked or forced into a bad angle. Some will tell you to just eat the call, part of the game.

To many softball umpires, that is ridiculous. BTW, I started at 14 and worked baseball for 22 years. When it became boring, I moved over to softball. I've been quite happy the past 17 years working the game with more than twice the action baseball provides.

So, I guess the answer is yes, it is different in softball.

[Mike Walsh]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

In softball, it is ALWAYS that the umpire making the call is the only one that can change it, not just on judgment calls.

And there are many in baseball which will tell you it's taboo to ask for help on a judgment call if there was the possibility they were blocked or forced into a bad angle. Some will tell you to just eat the call, part of the game.

To many softball umpires, that is ridiculous. BTW, I started at 14 and worked baseball for 22 years. When it became boring, I moved over to softball. I've been quite happy the past 17 years working the game with more than twice the action baseball provides.

So, I guess the answer is yes, it is different in softball.

Seems like there is a lot of unneccessary comparison between softball and baseball. PERHAPS between softball codes there are some opposite approaches, just as some baseball codes may depart from the norm. I have no ASA experience, and little Pony. Besides baseball, I call HS, NSA, and LL softball. And in none of them can an umpire be overrulled by his partner, ever.

When it is appropriate to discuss the call, get it right. But the way for that to happen is for the non-calling umpire to convince his partner to overturn himself. There are some common situations where that happens, such as the check swing and pulled foot. But even for these plays, the partner provides information and the umpire with the responsibility makes the call: PU - Did she go? BU - Yes, she did! PU - Strike.

I would not want my partner to initiate a conference to tell me I got it wrong. If I did blow an interp, the coach should be the one to bring it to my attention. (If it happens too frequently, I need to work on my game, or find a new avocation). After the coach expresses his opinion, then it will be my decision to involve my partner. That said, there may be times when an umpire provides his partner with information. Even on a judgment call: Partner - Balls on the ground, Mike! Mike - she's safe.

But long before an umpire helps his partner on a play, they need to be on the same page. Whether or not they are going to get it right by stepping in unsolicited or not, they should discuss the circumstances in a pre-game conference. I can't imagine a much worse scenario than one umpire telling his partner he got it wrong, and having that partner chew him a new one.

Mike

[Justme]

[/B][/QUOTE]
Seems like there is a lot of unneccessary comparison between softball and baseball. PERHAPS between softball codes there are some opposite approaches, just as some baseball codes may depart from the norm. I have no ASA experience, and little Pony. Besides baseball, I call HS, NSA, and LL softball. And in none of them can an umpire be overrulled by his partner, ever.

When it is appropriate to discuss the call, get it right. But the way for that to happen is for the non-calling umpire to convince his partner to overturn himself. There are some common situations where that happens, such as the check swing and pulled foot. But even for these plays, the partner provides information and the umpire with the responsibility makes the call: PU - Did she go? BU - Yes, she did! PU - Strike.

I would not want my partner to initiate a conference to tell me I got it wrong. If I did blow an interp, the coach should be the one to bring it to my attention. (If it happens too frequently, I need to work on my game, or find a new avocation). After the coach expresses his opinion, then it will be my decision to involve my partner. That said, there may be times when an umpire provides his partner with information. Even on a judgment call: Partner - Balls on the ground, Mike! Mike - she's safe.

But long before an umpire helps his partner on a play, they need to be on the same page. Whether or not they are going to get it right by stepping in unsolicited or not, they should discuss the circumstances in a pre-game conference. I can't imagine a much worse scenario than one umpire telling his partner he got it wrong, and having that partner chew him a new one.

Mike [/B][/QUOTE]

It's true that it is always the umpire making the original call's responsibility to change his call if he so desires, but it is the responsibility of his partner to let him know that he has some info that might help him 'get it right'. How this happens should be decided in your pre-game.

FYI, this is what the NCAA is asking of their baseball umpires. In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. However, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the calling umpire.
1. Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
2. Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground rule double.
3. Cases where a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher.
4. Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
5. Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see the ball dropped or juggled after making a tag or force.
6. Spectator interference plays.
7. Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher's foot was off the rubber.

Umpires are not to seek help on plays on which they are 100% confident in their judgment and view of the play. Head coaches are not entitled to a second opinion when the calling umpire is certain his decision is correct. On the other hand, and contrary to past practice, umpires are not to "die with the call" in cases where a) the calling umpire is not 100% certain he is right; and b) another umpire has additional information which could lead to a proper ruling. Both NCAA philosophy and umpire integrity -- consistent with NCAA rules -- dictate that calls be reversed in this situation.

Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal, include: steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire's knowledge as discussed above); force plays (when the ball is not dropped and the foot is not pulled); balls and strikes (other than check swings). This practice shall continue. Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a "catch/no catch" with multiple runners.

Overall, umpires are urged to seek help on reversible plays in which they may have erred by not seeing a crucial element of a play. Such meetings, while necessary, should be infrequent and not become a substitute for umpires seeking proper angles, exercising sound judgment, and having the conviction to stay with a call that an umpire believes was properly made.

IMHO, when it comes to rules, I would hate to have the coach point out to me that I had mis-applied or mis-interpreted a rule (plus it's embarrassing). I always ask my partner(s), in the pre-game, to let me know when I haven't applied or interpreted a rule correctly.

[mcrowder]

Coach - it IS our responsibility to see that the rules are properly administered.

But it's part of YOUR job, like it or not, to be well enough versed in the rules and procedures that A) you know when a RULES error is being made, and B) you know what to do when it happens. "Going Ballistic" is not one of your options. If I was PU in the 2nd sitch, I'd likely have tossed you, and THEN fixed the error. Learn the proper protest procedure, and USE it. You gain no respect from anyone (especially your players) when you "go ballistic", and get less leeway afterward (if you're not tossed on the spot).

[reccer]

I am the coach who started this thread and you are right on both counts. I have naively left my trust with the umps to keep the game fair.

I now know that some of you will protect your own integrity and the integrity of the game and correct obvious rules violations without being prompted by coaches who are more focused on coaching the kids than umpiring.

The others of you will also keep the game fair-- but only after I point out that you don't know what you are doing.

For my games, I hope I get the proactive ump rather than the reactive. My energies need to be spent on the kids and how I can break through against the other team's power pitcher-- not on whether you are doing your job.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by reccer
I am the coach who started this thread and you are right on both counts. I have naively left my trust with the umps to keep the game fair.

I now know that some of you will protect your own integrity and the integrity of the game and correct obvious rules violations without being prompted by coaches who are more focused on coaching the kids than umpiring.

The others of you will also keep the game fair-- but only after I point out that you don't know what you are doing.

For my games, I hope I get the proactive ump rather than the reactive. My energies need to be spent on the kids and how I can break through against the other team's power pitcher-- not on whether you are doing your job.

Unbelievable! Reccer, I honestly hope you get exactly what you just requested.