Give Me a Ruling?

ruffster22 · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 07, 2005, 04:51pm

Help me out here, I'm not an umpire, and we've discussed this 'round and 'round in my league...
ASA rules. Bases empty, a guy hits a double into the gap. Second baseman is crouched at the bag waiting for the throw to come in. As the runner approaches second base, the second-baseman whacks his fist into his glove in anticipation of the ball coming in to him. He doesn't move his glove towards the runner or apply a fake tag, but he whacks his fist into his glove. The runner comes in, but the shortstop cuts off the throw, so the ball never comes in to the waiting second-baseman. The umpire awarded a free base to the runner, saying the second-baseman, by whacking his glove and making a noise, was trying to deceive the runner.
Is this a good application of the rules? The runner should get a free base?
You make the call, please. Your thoughts welcome.

[Edited by ruffster22 on Nov 7th, 2005 at 05:21 PM]

Justme · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 07, 2005, 05:57pm

Umpire judgement call -

The umpire must have felt that when the 2nd baseman whacked his fist into his glove it deceived the baserunner into believing that he had caught the ball. The umpire must have felt that this prevented the baserunner from advancing to 3rd base.

If the umpire judges that the baserunner would have advanced to 3rd (or tried to advance)without the deception then yes, he should have given him 3rd.

IRISHMAFIA · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 07, 2005, 05:59pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ruffster22
Help me out here, I'm not an umpire, and we've discussed this 'round and 'round in my league...
ASA rules. Bases empty, a guy hits a double into the gap. Second baseman is crouched at the bag waiting for the throw to come in. As the runner approaches second base, the second-baseman whacks his fist into his glove in anticipation of the ball coming in to him. He doesn't move his glove towards the runner or apply a fake tag, but he whacks his fist into his glove. The runner comes in, but the shortstop cuts off the throw, so the ball never comes in to the waiting second-baseman. The umpire awarded a free base to the runner, saying the second-baseman, by whacking his glove and making a noise, was trying to deceive the runner.
Is this a good application of the rules? The runner should get a free base?
You make the call, please. Your thoughts welcome.

[Edited by ruffster22 on Nov 7th, 2005 at 05:21 PM]

Not having been there, and based on you description, I have nothing, but a player hitting his glove. I believe the "award" may have been based on another myth.

Though some believe such rules exist, there is no rule forbidding players from trying to deceive or trick an opponent. There are rules based on safety which restrict what is permissible under certain circumstances, but not with the scenario offered.

AtlUmpSteve · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 07, 2005, 08:44pm

I agree with what has been stated. I would only add that, if the runner broke stride as a result of that action, and/or made a belated slide attempt, so that I felt he could have been injured, I would treat this the same as a fake tag (even though it technically isn't), and warn the player, at a minimum.

ruffster22 · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 08, 2005, 08:05am

Quote:

Originally posted by Justme
Umpire judgement call -

The umpire must have felt that when the 2nd baseman whacked his fist into his glove it deceived the baserunner into believing that he had caught the ball. The umpire must have felt that this prevented the baserunner from advancing to 3rd base.

If the umpire judges that the baserunner would have advanced to 3rd (or tried to advance)without the deception then yes, he should have given him 3rd.

Is that true? Are there really rules against fielders trying to deceive runners? I mean, every time a live ball is thrown in from the outfield there are elaborate cutoffs and decoys and things to try to keep all the runners in place. In this particular situation, the second-baseman wasn't intentionally trying to deke the runner by whacking his mitt, but you say it's an umpire judgement call whether he was or wasn't. Fair enough, but why would a runner get a free base because a fielder is trying to deke him? Isn't that part of the game?

mcrowder · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 08, 2005, 09:23am

Deceipt is not the issue here.

Safety is almost the only issue that could have come into play, and if BU felt this was a fake tag (from the description, I wouldn't have a fake tag, but obviously we don't have the umpire's viewpoint represented here), then the award could be appropriate.

Perhaps, since you aren't an umpire, there was more to it --- was F4 in the basepath without the ball, causing the runner to slow down? And if so, did the umpire feel that the runner would have reached 3rd base had he not slowed down? This is a stretch, but it's possible.

Dakota · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 08, 2005, 10:12am

Quote:

Originally posted by ruffster22
Are there really rules against fielders trying to deceive runners?

No, there aren't.

debeau · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 08, 2005, 01:18pm

A loose answer to a loose question .
Are there any rules against fielders trying to deceive runners .
Well there is , its called obstruction .
You as an umpire in any situation decides if the fielders action has impeded( retarded by obstruction) the runner .
If so you rule accordingly .

Dakota · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 08, 2005, 02:11pm

debeau,

Just so I can follow what you are saying, can you give me an example of obstruction by deception (other than fake tag)?

mcrowder · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 08, 2005, 03:45pm

"Get BACK! Get BACK!!!!" (as if giving instructions from a coach) OR -

"He's OUTTTT!" or "TIME!!!!" (if spoken like an umpire, with the clear intent to deceive)

IRISHMAFIA · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 08, 2005, 04:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
"Get BACK! Get BACK!!!!" (as if giving instructions from a coach) OR -

"He's OUTTTT!" or "TIME!!!!" (if spoken like an umpire, with the clear intent to deceive)

I disagree. Mama Gump was right, stupid is as stupid does.

Those terms are often spoken, yelled, bellowed, etc. by players. If a player isn't smart enough to recogninze and pay attention to his/her coach's voice, shame on them.

If F4 screamed "SECOND, SECOND!" and the runner is thrown out advancing to 2B, would you give the runner the base?

That doesn't mean I will not protect their right to be stupid if they react to another player's cry, but it certainly isn't obstruction and there is no rule specifically prohibiting such things.

debeau · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 08, 2005, 11:18pm

The voice could very well be used as an obstruction .
A fielder comes up very close to the batter and voices obscenities or derogatory remarks and puts the batter off .
The same applies to a fielder using threatening language to a runner who backs off a base and is tagged .
A shout " get out af my way " as the runner runs to a base and startles a runner who misses a stride .
All of these could be obstruction if in the "judgement of the umpire" they think it is .
Could we go further then on the other side can we have vocal interference ?
I think we can .

IRISHMAFIA · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 09, 2005, 07:47am

Quote:

Originally posted by debeau
The voice could very well be used as an obstruction .
A fielder comes up very close to the batter and voices obscenities or derogatory remarks and puts the batter off .
The same applies to a fielder using threatening language to a runner who backs off a base and is tagged .
A shout " get out af my way " as the runner runs to a base and startles a runner who misses a stride .
All of these could be obstruction if in the "judgement of the umpire" they think it is .
Could we go further then on the other side can we have vocal interference ?
I think we can .

I disagree. USC maybe, but not obstruction. Again, stupid is as stupid does. If a runner heeds someone other than a team mate or coach, shame on them. As an umpire, I do not expect the runner to blindly listen to my voice without confirming with the coach if there is a question.

mcrowder was the on the right track, but I just don't believe the words he offered would do it. A call of "foul" or "dead ball" from a defender would more likely fit the bill, IMO, and only if the runners actually stopped.

mcrowder · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 09, 2005, 09:19am

"FOUL!" and "DEAD BALL!" would be verbal obs in your opinion, but "TIME!" wouldn't? That seems inconsistent.

"Second! Second!" No - fielder is yelling for the ball, why would that be obstruction?

IRISHMAFIA · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 09, 2005, 11:24am

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
"FOUL!" and "DEAD BALL!" would be verbal obs in your opinion, but "TIME!" wouldn't? That seems inconsistent.

"Second! Second!" No - fielder is yelling for the ball, why would that be obstruction?

Why would "TIME" be obstruction It is just a player making a request of the umpire for a suspension of play.