Asking for Help

Gemini · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 23, 2005, 07:28am

I call in Georgia. We were told this week by our secretary that we must ask for help if the coach asks for it. Even if we are in perfect position and there is no question in our mind that we got the call right. I plan on doing what he said even though I disagree with it.

What are your toughts?

mick · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 23, 2005, 08:31am

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemini
I call in Georgia. We were told this week by our secretary that we must ask for help if the coach asks for it. Even if we are in perfect position and there is no question in our mind that we got the call right. I plan on doing what he said even though I disagree with it.

What are your toughts?

I have absolutely no qualms about going to a partner if asked to do so. None!
Trust your partner.

mick

NSABlue · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 23, 2005, 09:05am

As a rule of thumb, I always confer with my partner if asked to do so by a coach. It is done as a courtesy to the coaches involved. You don't have to change your call, it's up to you. It only takes a moment and doesn't hurt anything so why not show the coach a little respect and have a short conference with your partner?

David

WestMichBlue · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 23, 2005, 09:18am

With me, this is not automatic, and I do not want coaches to think it is so. The coach has to give me a reason to confer with my partner.

If the coach simply disagrees with my call, then I tell him/her that it was my judgment and I have no reason to discuss that with anyone else.

But if the coach feels that I may not have had the best angle, or that maybe my partner may have seen something that I did not see, then of course I will confer with partner.

I am see too many coaches that automatically want a second opinion when a close call goes against them.

WMB

outathm · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 23, 2005, 09:28am

This is a way to get around the having to ask every time. When the coach comes out and asks about the play, tell them exactly what you had. Coach, I had the foot on the bag and the ball caught before the runner reached the base, what do you want me to ask for help with? Do not let the coach just make you go for help, have them tell you specifically what you need help with.

This is not mine but a UIC in a tournament I worked before told me this and it does solve a lot of problems.

AtlUmpSteve · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 23, 2005, 10:02am

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemini
I call in Georgia. We were told this week by our secretary that we must ask for help if the coach asks for it. Even if we are in perfect position and there is no question in our mind that we got the call right. I plan on doing what he said even though I disagree with it.

What are your thoughts?

I would be interested to know which GHSA association you belong to; that isn't the GHSA position. You ask for help if there is doubt in your mind that you absolutely had every piece of information to make the correct call; either because you know you didn't see it well, or because the coach raises an issue that leads you to consider the possibility you didn't see everything. If coach wants another opinion because he disagrees with a judgment call: 1) too bad, and 2) even if your partner disagrees with your judgment, what rule would allow you to change your judgment call? That is a lose/lose proposition.

The only thing worse than a coach asking for a second opinion is an umpire granting it rather than accepting responsibility for his/her call.

Steve M · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 23, 2005, 10:34am

Like others, I'll need the requesting coach to tell me what it is that he thinks I did not see before I check with a partner. And, if it's just the judgement he doesn't like, then there's no checking done. If it's my call and I'm sure that I have all applicable & needed information, there is no reason to ask my partner for anything. But if the coach saw a bobble, dropped ball, pulled foot, ... then I'll check with a partner just about every time.

Skahtboi · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 23, 2005, 10:41am

I too, will only go for help when a coach asks a specific question, basically within the parameters that Steve set in the previous post.

Andy · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 23, 2005, 12:42pm

While I generally agree with Steve and Steve as to when or when not to check with my partner, I will say that there have been times when I have gone to my partner at a coach's request even though I had no intention of changing my call and was absolutely sure of the call I had made. In these situations, I felt that "checking" with my partner was valuable as a game management tool.

It may have prevented a coach from escalating a situation further or it may have kept a game that was going smoothly up to that point remain smooth. Can't say exactly when to use this, it's more of a "feel" depending on the circumstances.

Gemini - These are my thoughts, but if your boss told you that you needed to check with your partner each time requested, you should do that or work for someone else.

AtlUmpSteve · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 23, 2005, 01:31pm

I buy that, Andy; and have done it. The key is, you really have to know what you are buying into, or, at least, be pretty sure. If it is a normally level-headed coach, you can often put to bed a one-time disagreement. However, you can also open the gates of hell, with requests to "go for help" on every play for the rest of the game.

Yeah, it's a "feel" thing; but G-d help you if you get it wrong. Of the two extremes, I prefer them to think I am unapproachable to thinking I can't do my job.

Also agree that you do what the boss says; unless you cn get the boss to qualify that statement ......

I WILL always go for help when asked on a check swing; I WILL always go for help if given any valid reason to do that. The coach asking isn't (in and of itself) a valid reason.

bkbjones · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 23, 2005, 05:28pm

Quote:

Originally posted by AtlUmpSteve
I buy that, Andy; and have done it. The key is, you really have to know what you are buying into, or, at least, be pretty sure. If it is a normally level-headed coach, you can often put to bed a one-time disagreement. However, you can also open the gates of hell, with requests to "go for help" on every play for the rest of the game.

Yeah, it's a "feel" thing; but G-d help you if you get it wrong. Of the two extremes, I prefer them to think I am unapproachable to thinking I can't do my job.

Also agree that you do what the boss says; unless you cn get the boss to qualify that statement ......

I WILL always go for help when asked on a check swing; I WILL always go for help if given any valid reason to do that. The coach asking isn't (in and of itself) a valid reason.

As I explained to one of this board's semi-regulars last weekend, when you are asked to get help on a checked swing, go ahead and ask...even if your partner is in the "wrong" position. I would hope that most umpires who are in the "wrong" position wouldn't overrule their partner unless they are 100 percent certain they are right.

But...asking your partner will cut down on the chirping.

And if you're presented with a valid, lucid argument/explanation, then by all means go. BUT if it's just a plain vanilla "you gotta get help on that, blue," then screw 'em.

Going for help every time you are asked is, IMHO, wrong.

Steve M · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 23, 2005, 05:32pm

Andy,
Not sure if I read this the way you meant it, but I've gone to my partner too when I had no intention of changing a call. I've called & my partner & I will get together and appear to be talking. I told one partner to just stand there while I told him what an incredible butt-head this particular coach was, that we were talking only for the sake of appearance, he should nod his head once or twice, then shake his head about 5-10 seconds later. Then I left & told the coach that the call stood.

And, like Steve said - when the boss wants you to work a certain way - you work that way or don't work. And, every level, when a catcher asks me about a check swing, I go to one or the other base ump.

addition - John must have been entering his post at the same time I was. I think he summed up going for help very well with "And if you're presented with a valid, lucid argument/explanation, then by all means go. BUT if it's just a plain vanilla "you gotta get help on that, blue," then screw 'em."

WestMichBlue · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 23, 2005, 07:40pm

I WILL always go for help when asked on a check swing

Even here I will not. I got burned once and won't make that mistake again.

Exception: two strikes on batter, check swing on a pitch that gets by the catcher. You called a ball and, in esessence, told the batter to stay home. Go to your partner who reverses the call and batter is an easy out. (By now the catcher has retrieved the passed ball.)

I am going to stick to my call on that one. If the coach insists, then I would check with partner in a meeting -never with a hand point.

Honestly, this is one umpiring protocal that I do not like. If I am not sure, I will not make a call, but will point to partner and thus transfer the call to him. But if I made the call, and out of courtesy go to partner, then he can overrule my call without my input.

On every other challenge the umpires talk in private. Regardless of partner's opinion, the calling umpire always makes the decision as to whether to uphold or reverse his own call. When you point to your partner, the call automatically becomes his and you live with it, whether you like his call or not.

Obviously this process has long been ingrained in to our game, and just as obvious, we are not going to call time and have a conference on every challenged check swing. But this doesn't mean that I like it. Personally, with my eyes only 3'-4' from the bat, I believe that I can see a checked swing just as well as my partner's eyes that are 75' away. When I am on the bases, regardless of who I am working with, I find that 90% of the time I disagree with whatever call the PU makes on a check swing. Obviously, our viewpoints are different. But what make my view, from 75', automatically better that his? It is not - but if he points at me, it is my call that becomes legal.

WMB

Gemini · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 23, 2005, 10:33pm

Response to Steve: Our secretary had gotten 9 straight calls from coaches complaining we did not ask for help. He took it upon himself to tell us we had to ask for assistance. Some of us older blues argued with him, but to no avail. I will follow his recommendation.

I know this is not GHSA's rule, but he's the boss.

Steve M · #15 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 24, 2005, 04:56am

WMB,
Here's a solution to the real problem you present with
"Exception: two strikes on batter, check swing on a pitch that gets by the catcher. You called a ball and, in esessence, told the batter to stay home. Go to your partner who reverses the call and batter is an easy out. (By now the catcher has retrieved the passed ball.)"
When working with someone I'm not sure of, I'll go to that partner about a checked swing as soon as the ball gets by the catcher. With a partner I know, I know he'll echo my call in that situation.

I am going to disagree with you about the view of the checked swing. Yes, you are only a couple feet away and your partner is 70+ feet away - but your partner is watching the whole play instead of tracking that borderline pitch. As PU, your priority is the pitch, not the swing.