Fastpitch Question.........

[baldgriff]

I am a slow pitch umpire but have been in a discussion about the Hit by Pitch rule in fastpitch. My question is this after the pitcher releases the ball if it bounces prior to crossing the plate and hits the batter (who is attempting to get out of the way) is this a Hit by Pitch.

I believe that it is as the pitch is not dead when it hits the ground in front of the plate and therefore if it hits the batter would result in an HBP.

Is this correct?

Thanks

[bkbjones]

Yes, it is HBP in fast pitch.

[whiskers_ump]

Some will say "unles batter made no attempt to get out of the way." On a pitch that first
hits the ground, ball moving with velocity, I will always award the batter the base. They
have no clue where the ball is going once it contracts the ground.

[coachsara]

so with it being said that its still a live ball if it contacts the ground in front of the plate and its a HBP- how about a swinging strike 3 call on a ball bouncing in front of the plate where the catcher picks it up on the bounce?

In USSSA (not sure ASA, I'm only red)the batter is allowed to run if 1st is unoccupied even if the catcher picks it up.

I've heard many coaches argue this rule should be revisited and give benefit to the catcher.

[mcrowder]

Why would coaches argue that? Did the catcher catch the ball in flight? No.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by coachsara
so with it being said that its still a live ball if it contacts the ground in front of the plate and its a HBP- how about a swinging strike 3 call on a ball bouncing in front of the plate where the catcher picks it up on the bounce?

In USSSA (not sure ASA, I'm only red)the batter is allowed to run if 1st is unoccupied even if the catcher picks it up.

I've heard many coaches argue this rule should be revisited and give benefit to the catcher.

Are these former cricket coaches?

[AtlUmpSteve]

A pitch becomes a pitch when the pitcher pitchs it; it remains a pitch in fastpitch until it hits something that isn't part of the playing field (the bat, the catcher's glove, the catcher, the batter, dead ball territory). Until that happens, it is a pitch, it is live, and the consequences of a live ball apply. The field itself (the dirt, the plate, the fence) doesn't end the pitch; if any did, how could a ball that bounces and doesn't hit the batter remain alive?

Balls which don't go directly in the air from pitcher's hand to catcher's glove without touching anything but air are not caught for the purpose of the uncaught (or dropped) third strike rule. (Yes, that includes the bat, as the foul tip rule is not the same rule application; that is a caught foul tip for strike three, NOT a caught strike three).

[coachsara]

ha, he argued it because

1. he was losing
2. he was the 4th place finisher in the state tourney
3. i am a fairly young female and my partner was a very young looking 23 year old female.

The state fastpitch director happened to be at this tourney and explained to the coach after his tantrum on me that he was wrong.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by coachsara
ha, he argued it because

1. he was losing
2. he was the 4th place finisher in the state tourney
3. i am a fairly young female and my partner was a very young looking 23 year old female.

The state fastpitch director happened to be at this tourney and explained to the coach after his tantrum on me that he was wrong.

If the director explained it after the tantrum, was it in the parking lot or the next day?

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by AtlUmpSteve
... snip ...
Balls which don't go directly in the air from pitcher's hand to catcher's glove without touching anything but air are not caught for the purpose of the uncaught (or dropped) third strike rule. (Yes, that includes the bat, as the foul tip rule is not the same rule application; that is a caught foul tip for strike three, NOT a caught strike three).

I've always thought a foul tip was the same as a strike except for having to signal that it was not a foul ball. Are you saying that a caught foul tip on a third strike is an U3K and the batter can advance to 1st?

[AtlUmpSteve]

No, you aren't following. A foul tip can never be an uncaught or dropped third strike, no matter what happens afterwards; but it is the end of the pitch when it is tipped. The only thing a foul tip can become is caught by the catcher for a strike and a live ball, which may be on any count. If it is uncaught, or caught by someone other than the catcher, it is simply a foul ball, and a dead ball.

If the ball touches the bat or batter, the pitch ends, and the dropped third strike rule cannot be applied; period. They aren't caught, but they are not subject to the uncaught third strike rule either, because they are either fair batted balls, foul tips (meaning CAUGHT), or dead balls (all uncaught balls which hit the bat are either fair or foul, and all foul balls are dead balls, right?).

[Dakota]

Originally posted by AtlUmpSteve
...and all foul balls are dead balls, right?

Unless you write the NFHS rule book and interpretations.

[DaNewGuy]

I've noticed that in Rec League "HBP, 1b awarded" is a given by most umps, even when the batter makes no effort to avoid the pitch. In tourny play (this is my first tourny season as an ump) I have seen fewer hit batters and more called balls without base awarded because batters don't make the effort.

Back to Rec League - I look for the effort to avoid the pitch, but I find myself often explaining that 1b is not awarded because batter made no effort to avoid. I make this explanation louder (but not yelling) than most other explanations so that the fans can hear as well - they, too, expect an automatic 1b award.

CoachSara: I've noted a few of your comments in which you express that gender affects how coaches and fans view the ump. Too true! Recently I partnered to ump a tourny game with a younger female partner - mid-30's, blond, petite, not a loud voice. She is more knowledgeable and more experienced than I and made solid calls. Her calls were questioned more often - coaches and fans challenged her more often, and at the end of the game, one coach told me he thought she was intimidated which was absolutely NOT the case. I'm older, bigger, male, and because of officiating experience in other sports, a little more authoritative-sounding so you can guess the assumptions.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by AtlUmpSteve
No, you aren't following. A foul tip can never be an uncaught or dropped third strike, no matter what happens afterwards; but it is the end of the pitch when it is tipped. The only thing a foul tip can become is caught by the catcher for a strike and a live ball, which may be on any count. If it is uncaught, or caught by someone other than the catcher, it is simply a foul ball, and a dead ball.

If the ball touches the bat or batter, the pitch ends, and the dropped third strike rule cannot be applied; period. They aren't caught, but they are not subject to the uncaught third strike rule either, because they are either fair batted balls, foul tips (meaning CAUGHT), or dead balls (all uncaught balls which hit the bat are either fair or foul, and all foul balls are dead balls, right?).

OK, thanks, sorry I misread.
Now I see you were saying it can only be a foul tip if it's caught, so it can't be caught and uncaught at the same time. If not caught, it's just a foul ball, so no advance by anyone.
Also, my premise above (foul tip is the same as a strike except for having to signal that it was not a foul ball) is ok.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by Dakota

Unless you write the NFHS rule book and interpretations.

What does that mean?