What do you say

rhsc · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 30, 2005, 08:48am

When you vets know you are going to be working with a newer official, what advice, or otherwise, do you tell them, other than; shut-up and let me make the calls? or go get me something to drink?

mcrowder · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 30, 2005, 09:03am

I am almost always the first to work with a very new guy. First thing I explain to them is the major differences between baseball (i.e. their preconceived notions) and ASA softball. Second is positioning and selling the call.

Then I make sure they understand what is their responsibility and what is my responsibility, and I usually make sure they understand the "mirror call" on a check-swing wild pitch with 2 strikes (so we don't have the fiasco of a very late 3rd strike call that we have to fix).

Then just before gametime I make sure they understand that it's completely ok if they call time after a play is over to ask me something if they are unclear on something (this usually turns out to be them seeing interference or obstruction, but not knowing exactly what to call), and then also explain that they are responsible for their own calls and that I'll back them up publicly, even if they mess up.

rhsc · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 30, 2005, 09:35am

Quote:

[ and I usually make sure they understand the "mirror call" on a check-swing wild pitch with 2 strikes (so we don't have the fiasco of a very late 3rd strike call that we have to fix).
[/B]

You probably knew this was coming, but I dont see 'mirror call' anywhere in the book. Just so I understand, please explain further at your leisure.

mcrowder · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 30, 2005, 10:54am

If you've ever been on the wrong end of this, you'll ensure it doesn't happen in the future.

2-strikes, no one on 1st. Checkswing that you don't call a strike on a passed ball or wild pitch. Pitch goes to the backstop, catcher fumbles around, gets the ball, throws it back to the pitcher, and THEN asks for the appeal.

In some areas, you don't HAVE to appeal when requested, and in some you do. Even in those where you don't, you're likely to create some ill will if you don't, some some umpires will advise that you go ahead and ask for the appeal.

In this particular case, if you ask for the appeal, and the BU rings up the batter, you have put the batter at a disadvantage in that she'd have ended up at 1st base on the D3K had the strike been called immediately. By rule, if the umpire puts a player in danger of an out by his own "mistake", he can rectify the situation by placing runners. In this particular sitch, all you have is a $hithouse, and everyone's upset whether you put BR on 1st or ring her up.

So MOST experienced base umpires will simply rule "no swing" in this case. Newbies don't know this, and don't realize that if they call it a swing, they've set up a situation that no one will be happy with. So I explain it to them.

I'm sure to get some disagreement on this from other Umpires - but would expect that most do exactly the same thing.

rhsc · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 30, 2005, 11:09am

Sounds like good advise Mc. I surely would not have thought of it and have never seen the call. Thx.

IRISHMAFIA · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 30, 2005, 01:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rhsc
When you vets know you are going to be working with a newer official, what advice, or otherwise, do you tell them, other than; shut-up and let me make the calls? or go get me something to drink?

I usually tell them to listen and watch what I do. I will warn them that between half-innings, I'm going to throw a lot of data in their direction. Never take anything personally and we will discuss everything after the game.

As far as the "mirror" calls, I don't care for umpires that make that decision. What type of "****house" are you going to have if there wasn't a doubt the batter went?

BTW, if this happens, you do not award the BR 1st base. If they wanted to get on, they should have hit the ball. Some will say that you put the batter in jeopardy. Is it not possible that you also caused the defense to not play the ball with any urgency?

mcrowder · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 30, 2005, 01:40pm

If there wasn't any doubt on the swing, I'd have called it when they swung.

And while I respect your opinion that you would not place BR on 1st here, I would say that you DO, in fact, place BR in jeopardy if you don't call the strike immediately - and yes, it is POSSIBLE that you caused the defense to proceed with less urgency. If it did occur that I called ball, defense picked up the WP/PB, and then appealled, and my BU, for some reason, DID call it a strike, then I, as umpire, would have to use judgement to weigh the two and decide if we did, in fact, cause the BR to be out when she would have made it had I called strike immediately. I'm not saying I would ALWAYS put the runner on 1st. I'm saying you've created the S-House, and neither decision is entirely fair.

Skahtboi · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 30, 2005, 01:41pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
[B]

Quote:

Originally posted by rhsc

As far as the "mirror" calls, I don't care for umpires that make that decision. What type of "****house" are you going to have if there wasn't a doubt the batter went?

BTW, if this happens, you do not award the BR 1st base. If they wanted to get on, they should have hit the ball. Some will say that you put the batter in jeopardy. Is it not possible that you also caused the defense to not play the ball with any urgency?

Dammit Mike. I find myself agreeing with you again.

JEL · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 30, 2005, 01:49pm

As far as the "mirror" calls, I don't care for umpires that make that decision. What type of "****house" are you going to have if there wasn't a doubt the batter went?

I worked a tourney with a guy last year who told me "If I take off my mask and ask, agree with me, if I leave my mask on, call what you saw".

I told him he just better not ask me, I was gonna call what I saw either way, and yes even in the "C" slot!

bkbjones · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 30, 2005, 01:56pm

JEL, that used to be standard operating procedure in much of the country...

And, as much as I hate to...I have to agree with Irish on this one.

We may have put them in jeopardy, but it's not our duty to be politically correct or anything...it's our duty to get the call RIGHT.

IRISHMAFIA · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 30, 2005, 04:44pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
If there wasn't any doubt on the swing, I'd have called it when they swung.

That was not part of the scenario. There are many obvious swings that the PU doesn't necessarily see that everyone else does.

Quote:

And while I respect your opinion that you would not place BR on 1st here, I would say that you DO, in fact, place BR in jeopardy if you don't call the strike immediately - and yes, it is POSSIBLE that you caused the defense to proceed with less urgency. If it did occur that I called ball, defense picked up the WP/PB, and then appealled, and my BU, for some reason, DID call it a strike, then I, as umpire, would have to use judgement to weigh the two and decide if we did, in fact, cause the BR to be out when she would have made it had I called strike immediately. I'm not saying I would ALWAYS put the runner on 1st. I'm saying you've created the S-House, and neither decision is entirely fair.

I look at it in a priority manner. Did the batter swing? If yes, that is a strikeout. Did the batter earn THEIR way to 1B? No.

Did the defense do anything to make the batter swing? No. Did the pitcher earn the strike out? Yes.

If the swing was pronounced enough that the BU ruled it a swing, most likely the batter knew it was a swing. The onus is on the batter to take advantage of a bad defensive position.

JMHO,

BHBlue · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 30, 2005, 08:58pm

I realize it happens fairly quickly, but if the check swing is one that you would get help from your partner on if asked to, why not check with him/her as soon as the ball is missed by the catcher? This at least minimizes the delay. BTW, it's straight out of the NCAA manual.

Andy · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 31, 2005, 04:43pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BHBlue
I realize it happens fairly quickly, but if the check swing is one that you would get help from your partner on if asked to, why not check with him/her as soon as the ball is missed by the catcher? This at least minimizes the delay. BTW, it's straight out of the NCAA manual.

Best possible resolution to a sticky situation. Don't wait to be asked...go for help immediately if there is *any* question of a swing.

At the least, everyone on the field knows what the call will be a lot sooner.

SC Ump · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 31, 2005, 05:27pm

Because of where this thread has gone, y'all might think I'm making it up, but I tell them:

Make the call that you see. If you see an infield fly and I don't, then go ahead and call it. If I come to you on any check swings, give me what you got. Even if you are on the "wrong side", just give me what you got. If you have a question about a swipe tag or a pulled foot, then ask me and I will answer the question you ask. Did she pull her foot will get a "yes" or "no" answer so you can make your call. If there is something you want to talk about in private, then call time and come to me. If a coach has a question for you and comes ask you, I will not get in the middle of it unless you ask me something. If the coach asks me, then I expect you to do the same. I will let you know if I have a question.

By the way, the above is not just for new folks, it is for anyone that I do no call with regularly. For the new folks, if it is game time I just try to calm them down. I find a good way to get their mind off the jitters is to let them shine my base and plate shoes. Hey, it's the least I can do for them.

AtlUmpSteve · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 31, 2005, 07:19pm

And the above, rhsc, explains why you never were taught the "mirror" call. It is not taught, approved, nor recommended by ASA, and the NCAA Umpires manual specifically states not to do it. It is an old baseball mechanic, generally taught to prove my call is the only call, not to mitigate situations.

Make the call you see. If the batter swung at the ball, it should be called a swing; preferably early, but called late if correct. The result of the play is the result of the batter swinging, not of the timing of the call of the swing. If the batter thinks there is even a smidgeon of doubt, they should be running.