ASA Illegal Substitution Question

[IRISHMAFIA]

It is possible that the umpire is not aware of the illegal sub.

If the umpire is aware the coach has a problem, the umpire should question the coach. If the coach says, "Blue, 14 for 12", the umpire should tell the coach that 14 has already been in the game in another slot.

I don't propose you do this screaming across the field. Anytime a coach indicates they want to make a change, the umpire should pull their line-up card and walk toward the coach until the two of you can converse without raising a voice.

It is preventive umpiring. You are not coaching the team, you are telling them that what they are doing is NOT permitted. The penalties are the remedy when something does occur.

If you are just hearing this now, you either haven't been to the right clinics or the clinicians are giving you the rules without advising you on the means of application.

[gtfreek]

Point taken, but cops dont prevent you from breaking the law. They can inform and encourage, just like us, if we choose, but ultimately we are there to enforce the rules, not prevent anybody from breaking them. Im still tryin to learn here and very open-minded, but i dont see it yet.

[whiskers_ump]

As someone in an earlier post, WMB, mentioned go to cactusumpires site.
Hopefully it will aide in conviencing you that preventing something from
happening later down the line is good for you as an umpire.

[Ranger23]

The one factor everyone is overlooking, and a great reason for prevenative umpiring, is the liability factor. If you as an umpire knowingly allow an illegal sub, and that sub gets injured you will be liable for allowing it. Simply put, protect your own interest. (your wallet and home)

[NorthAlaUmp]

Originally posted by gtfreek
Point taken, but cops dont prevent you from breaking the law. They can inform and encourage, just like us, if we choose, but ultimately we are there to enforce the rules, not prevent anybody from breaking them. Im still tryin to learn here and very open-minded, but i dont see it yet.

Where do you get that cops don't prevent you breaking the law??? Are you saying that if you tell a cop you are about to rob a bank, he can say go ahead and then arrest you when you do it??? Call it informing or encouraging, that cop is going to prevent you robbing that bank.

Then why do you say umpires shouldn't prevent illegal conduct? You do it when you inspect bats before the game and tell them to put the illegal ones back in the car or tell them the ball they just handed you has the wrong COR. It's the same thing with anything that has to go through me. IMO, if they didn't want me to "approve" a sub or CR, then they wouldn't have to tell me when they did it.

Which batter is up next is not something that I have to record each at bat. The score keeper does this and if discovered, then an appeal is in order. Missing a base used to be a direct call by the ump, but that was changed by specific rule, moving it to an appeal. (Still don't like that, as I believe you either broke the rule or you didn't, and a team shouldn't be able to break rules with impunity just because the other team is asleep. I believe this teaches the players the wrong lesson in life; it's okay to break the law as long as you don't get caught!?!?! Okay, off my soap box now.)

Not meaning to be hard or overly critical here, gtfreek, but this just seems like a real common sense thing. I would question the people that gave you the information about letting it go and then penalizing them if they get caught, and that seems to be what you are doing by posting here.

Keep questioning, because, as a High School Physics teacher taught me years ago, "the only stupid question is the one you didn't ask."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by gtfreek
Point taken, but

"but" This word alone shows me that we may be wasting our time. What people are posting here is the prescribed manner in which to handle these situations.

Do yourself a favor, learn the different measures of preventive umpiring. And I'm not talking about "warning" a coach or player about everything happening. I'm talking about the administrative part of the job. It will keep you in the game and on the field.

[gtfreek]

I must admit, i believe i was wrong after hereing some more experienced advice. I still think there could be a point where you have to let a coach/player be wrong. Like with inspection of bats; if i inspect the bats and then during the game one is introduced, would you still try to prevent it?

As far as the cop thing, its a different circumstance if the crook tells the cop, we were talkin about the cop preventing. That can get a little funny, i mean no cop is gonna try to prevent every crime (56mph in 55 zone), but in light of this conversation, i guess they do try to prevent some. Im learnin. Thx

[BretMan]

Thanks, all, for the input.

Mike: No, I probably haven't been attending the right clinics. Or, any clinics for that matter, since I just became ASA certified eight days ago. So far, I've only been to the local association rule meetings.

Most definitely, I will follow-up with the class instructor at the next association meeting. That's my reason for bringing this up- to get it right BEFORE I need to apply it on the field.

Still, there's something I can't shake that just doesn't feel right about this. On one hand, we can prevent a coach from making an illegal sub, thus preventing a penalty. Yet, on the other, as you note, "It is possible that the umpire is not aware of the illegal sub." If protested, we nail this team.

It seems that in the second case, the umpires lack of diligence has put one team in a potentially bad situation.

What type of reaction might we expect if one coach is penalized for an illegal sub, while perhaps earlier in the game you have prevented the opposing coach from making the same mistake through "preventive umpiring"?

And what ever happened to the frequent cry of "it's the coaches responsibility to know the rules"?

No, I am not aruguing anyone's point from this thread, just offering up a few thoughts. As I said, I will follow-up with the instructor and I'm sure that he will set me straight.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by BretMan
Still, there's something I can't shake that just doesn't feel right about this. On one hand, we can prevent a coach from making an illegal sub, thus preventing a penalty. Yet, on the other, as you note, "It is possible that the umpire is not aware of the illegal sub." If protested, we nail this team.

It seems that in the second case, the umpires lack of diligence has put one team in a potentially bad situation.

What type of reaction might we expect if one coach is penalized for an illegal sub, while perhaps earlier in the game you have prevented the opposing coach from making the same mistake through "preventive umpiring"?

And what ever happened to the frequent cry of "it's the coaches responsibility to know the rules"?

No, I am not aruguing anyone's point from this thread, just offering up a few thoughts. As I said, I will follow-up with the instructor and I'm sure that he will set me straight.

It is possible for the umpire to allow an illegal player to enter the game because he is not paying attention, but the most likely way an illegal player enters the game is because the player is also unnanounced.

Maybe looking at it this way will help. What happens when the coach comes to you and says, "I'm entering #22 for #18."

1) You find the players on your line up card.
2) You make the notation of the substitution.
3) You inform the scorekeeper of the change.

Notice that YOU are responsible for DOING something here. You are not just a robot following orders. If you allow the illegal substitution of #22 for #18 (who cares why it is illegal - for the sake of the discussion, it just is) then YOU have to make an illegal line up change on your card, and YOU have to inform the scorekeeper to make an illegal change.

If you screw up and allow an illegal change for one coach after stopping one for the other coach, well, though luck, coach. No different from any other ruling that may have gone bad for one team and good for the other. It shouldn't happen, but it does.

[gtfreek]

Dakota, the second i say i hate you, 'you totally redeem yourself.' Im beginning to like it around here. Whether yall like me remains to be seen/heard.

Im still a little fague on when to do what, when it comes to some of the rules.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by gtfreek
Dakota, the second i say i hate you, 'you totally redeem yourself.'

I live to be redeemed!

Of course, to be redeemed, you first have to fall, right?

[gtfreek]

Nope, we were born into sin. So go and sin no more.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Dakota

It is possible for the umpire to allow an illegal player to enter the game because he is not paying attention, but the most likely way an illegal player enters the game is because the player is also unnanounced.

Maybe looking at it this way will help. What happens when the coach comes to you and says, "I'm entering #22 for #18."

1) You find the players on your line up card.
2) You make the notation of the substitution.
3) You inform the scorekeeper of the change.

Notice that YOU are responsible for DOING something here. You are not just a robot following orders. If you allow the illegal substitution of #22 for #18 (who cares why it is illegal - for the sake of the discussion, it just is) then YOU have to make an illegal line up change on your card, and YOU have to inform the scorekeeper to make an illegal change.

If you screw up and allow an illegal change for one coach after stopping one for the other coach, well, though luck, coach. No different from any other ruling that may have gone bad for one team and good for the other. It shouldn't happen, but it does.

Nice Post Tom. I would like to hear 03matrixrs' reply also.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump

Nice Post Tom. I would like to hear 03matrixrs' reply also.

Think you already did