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Wed Mar 16, 2005, 09:40am
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Having just received my ASA certification, this was a little new to me when it was covered in last weeks local rules meeting. Thought maybe some of the experienced guys could clear this up.
If a coach attempts to make an illegal substitution, should the umpire: - accept the sub without comment, and wait for the other team to appeal before enforcing the penalty, or; - inform the coach that the sub is illegal and prevent him from making it? From what I got in class, the instructor seemed to be telling us that you allow the sub, then wait for the other team to appeal. He did suggest first asking the coach, "Are you sure you want to do that?" before accepting the change, thus giving the coach a chance to double-check his sub and to confirm that the umpire is recording it correctly. Then, if the sub is illegal, enforce any penalties only upon appeal. Did I get what he was telling us right, or did I misunderstand how to handle this? Or was I maybe just getting drowsy near the end of that two-and-a-half hour meeting? 
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Wed Mar 16, 2005, 10:05am
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IMO, preventative umpiring is always the best course of action. I would inform the coach that the substitution that he/she is attempting to make is not allowed, but if they insisted on doing it anyway, then go ahead and accept it.
__________________
Scott It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to have to paint it.
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Wed Mar 16, 2005, 10:42am
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Quote:
further down the line. Just a simple, "Coach, you sure you want to do that?" They usually get the message. If asked directly, "Why do you ask?" Inform them that their move is not legal. I don't feel this is giving one team an advantage over the other, since I would do the same if the other team tried to make an illegal substitution. Just keeps things on an even keel. I don't want to have to eject(restrict) a player because a coach made a mistake in judgment. Too many times we have to pentalize a player for a coach's mistake. (edited for spelling purposes) [Edited by whiskers_ump on Mar 16th, 2005 at 11:17 AM]
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glen _______________________________ "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." --Mark Twain.
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Wed Mar 16, 2005, 10:43am
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Hey BretMan,
Welcome to the ranks of the ASA world. I know you will be a good addition for your local group. I'm gonna have to agree with your instructor on this one. I'm not there to advise coaches or players. If I were to inform the coach this isn't legal, I would feel obligated to inform the opposing coach also. If the coach were to ask "can I make this substitution?", then I might tell him that would be illegal. Having said that, our local rec starts sat. Play will be weak and coaches new. We usually (during the first part of the season anyway) do a lot of "mini rules clinics" during the games. Everbody bats, no sub rules, so this won't come up.
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Wed Mar 16, 2005, 10:46am
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Skaht, i sorta agree, but doesnt that potentially tip off, if not create suspision, to the opposing team to appeal? Not questioning your experience, but having played and coached, i used to watch for that sort of conversation and almost always found the reason to appeal.
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Wed Mar 16, 2005, 11:14am
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JEL,
What you have stated is almost word-for-word what our instructor said. If the coach would specifically ask, "Am I allowed to do this...", then the umpire should state the applicable rule. It would then be up to the coach to decide if he still wanted to make the sub. If a coach is attempting to make an illegal sub, the instructor suggested asking, "Are you sure you want to do that?". That gave the coach a chance to double-check his sub request, and also helped confirm for the umpire that he was understanding the request correctly. That way you have both a dose of "preventive" umpiring and give the coach a chance to correct the mistake before it happens, but at the same time you are not denying the other team of their chance to appeal an illegal sub violation. Sound about right? I thought that I had a good handle on this, until another umpire a few days later told me to flat-out never allow the illegal sub to take place.
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Wed Mar 16, 2005, 11:32am
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WHY:
Do you keep a line-up card? Do you ask that all changes come through you, and then you notify the official scorekeeper? If you are not going to use that for preventative umpiring, then why bother? I find it hard to accept than an umpire would delibertely allow a coach to enter an illegal substitute, and then kick the player out of the game when the other team objected. "Time Blue. Courtesy runner for my catcher." "Can't do that Coach." "Why not?" "Because she already ran for your pitcher. You have to use a different player." "But I don't have anyone else." "Not my problem, Coach. But this one is illegal" "Oh, alright," as she sends the runner back to the dugout. Do you really think that this is some how cheating? Or helping one team over the other? If you want a pretty good authority on this subject, go to Cactus Umpires and view Emily Alexander's power point on line-up management. She has many slides telling you to say NO and not allow an improper substitution. WMB
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Wed Mar 16, 2005, 12:10pm
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Here is something that should NEVER happen in ANY game:
An announced illegal substitute. The plate umpire should not allow it to happen. Call it preventative umpiring if you will, but I am not going to enter a known illegal sub on my line up card. Won't happen.
__________________
Tom
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Wed Mar 16, 2005, 12:40pm
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If the PU goes brain dead and allows the illegal sub, the remedy is the protest.
If the illegal sub is unnannouced (such as FLEX entering for another player in the batting order), then the remedy is the protest. As the PU, I do not have an OBLIGATION (as such) to prevent the illegal sub, so I am not required to memorize the names and faces of the players so I can recognize all attempts at unanncounced sub or illegal sub. But, if the coach brings me a sub that I know to be illegal or any other line up change (such as CR) that I know to be illegal, I will tell him, "Coach, you can't do that." And, I will tell him why. This is especially true with the DP/FLEX positions. It is very easy for a coach to get wrapped around the axel with this rule, and there are a number of myths about the rule that coaches believe (such as unlimited swapping between the DP and FLEX). Here is a distinction I would make. B1 due up. B2 comes up to bat. I happen to know the team well enough to know B2 is BOO. I will ignore this. B1 due up. Coach approaches and says, "I want to bring in #22 to bat for B1." (Now, #22 has already been in the game as a sub for B2.) I'll say, "Can't do that, coach. #22 has already batted in the #2 spot. She can't sub for the #1 spot player."
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Tom
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Wed Mar 16, 2005, 12:43pm
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That's where my thinking gets muddled, too.
An illegal player is an appealable infraction, right? As an analogy, missing a base is an appealable infraction. We remain quiet and only apply a penalty if appealed by the other team. Same with batting out of order. The umpire says nothing unless a proper appeal is offered. Since an illegal player is an appealable infraction, why is it treated differently than the other two?
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Wed Mar 16, 2005, 12:44pm
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Quote:
__________________
Tom
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Wed Mar 16, 2005, 12:50pm
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Well, I'm all for being completely technical!
Up until now, all of the fastpitch softball I've done has been in leagues that used the continuous batting order, so lineup management hasn't been quite the same issue. Just want to make sure I've got it right before it becomes an issue during a game.
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