A couple more NUS Issues

[WestMichBlue]

BTW – I like Kevin Ryan. I think by the end of the day we had a lot of respect for each other, but we disagreed on many issues. In addition to the ones already mentioned on the other post, here is a couple more.

What is your opinion?

1. Going to partner for help. Before or after your call? Let’s say you are in C and have a close play at 1B. Ball beats the runner, but you are not sure if F3 pulled her foot. You point to partner and say, “pull?” He says “Yes” and you sell a safe call. He says “No” and you put the hammer down. I have done this before in a game and it really looks sharp and you get no objections from coaches or players. And it is supported by the Umpire’s Manual.

But Kevin says NO! Make the OUT call first and then go to partner for help. Obviously you may then have to change your call. That does not look like a good mechanic to me. What do you say?

2. Checked Swing with 2 strikes (FP). Oh & two count; batter checks swing on a drop ball that gets by the catcher. The pitch is outside the strike zone; you are convinced that she held up and you sell a big BALL call. Coach asks you to appeal to partner. I prefer not to appeal, telling the coach that I have the call. If I do go to partner, he better echo my call.

Kevin says NO – partner is to call it as he sees it. I respond that we have trapped the runner at the plate on what is now an uncaught 3rd strike and she is an easy out. Kevin: “She should have been running; she knew that she swung.” WMB: “It was my Ball call that put her in jeopardy; I cannot now call her out. Kevin: “Doesn’t matter, she should have been running.” What do you say?

WMB

[azbigdawg]

Ha! In your other post, u said you didnt get anything from the national school. Sounds like they got you thinking, at least.... :-) I dont agree with everything I read in your posts.... drop me an email at [email protected] have some thoughts for you.

[FUBLUE]

Sorry to hear of your unhappiness with the NUS in South Bend. I did not attend this year due to other commitments.

However, on the point of asking for help before or after the call, I say make the call you see, then go to your partner for help. WMB, if you and I are working together, I know that you are going to be looking for a pulled foot (as the plate umpire). But what if someone new takes off for third and doesn't see? You point and ask for help, and she's standing at third base? WHat do you do then?

I always make the call I feel is right, then if they want the appeal, I'll appeal.

Personally, on a dropped third strike I won't go to my partner unless I absolutely have no idea of the bats path. I think it does put the runner/batter-runner in jeopardy if we call ball, the later change it to strike.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
BTW – I like Kevin Ryan. I think by the end of the day we had a lot of respect for each other, but we disagreed on many issues. In addition to the ones already mentioned on the other post, here is a couple more.

What is your opinion?

1. Going to partner for help. Before or after your call? Let’s say you are in C and have a close play at 1B. Ball beats the runner, but you are not sure if F3 pulled her foot. You point to partner and say, “pull?” He says “Yes” and you sell a safe call. He says “No” and you put the hammer down. I have done this before in a game and it really looks sharp and you get no objections from coaches or players. And it is supported by the Umpire’s Manual.

But Kevin says NO! Make the OUT call first and then go to partner for help. Obviously you may then have to change your call. That does not look like a good mechanic to me. What do you say?

2. Checked Swing with 2 strikes (FP). Oh & two count; batter checks swing on a drop ball that gets by the catcher. The pitch is outside the strike zone; you are convinced that she held up and you sell a big BALL call. Coach asks you to appeal to partner. I prefer not to appeal, telling the coach that I have the call. If I do go to partner, he better echo my call.

Kevin says NO – partner is to call it as he sees it. I respond that we have trapped the runner at the plate on what is now an uncaught 3rd strike and she is an easy out. Kevin: “She should have been running; she knew that she swung.” WMB: “It was my Ball call that put her in jeopardy; I cannot now call her out. Kevin: “Doesn’t matter, she should have been running.” What do you say?

WMB

Agree with both.

Anytime a BU doesn't make a call at any base, they no longer own the call and must give it up to partner. If your partner isn't looking, you're boned. And that is more likely to happen if you are in the C because that means the PU has runner responsibilities. That call at 3rd or home has a higher priority that one at 1B.

If you thought the pitch was a ball, that's what you call? Even if you don't call a ball and go to your partner immediately, the batter is still standing at the plate. If a batter doesn't run, one team or the other is always going to have a claim that the umpire's call or lack of one cause their team to not make a play.

[WestMichBlue]

FUBLUE:" WMB, if you and I are working together, I know that you are going to be looking for a pulled foot (as the plate umpire).

Thanks. And you are right, I would be there, even if I had a runner going to 3B.

However, I do not blindly go the my partner for help. I have a fraction of a second to find him/her. If they are in position to help, I can go to them. If they are not looking, then I am going to make the call as I see it and let the coach raise the "go for help" issue.

MIKE:"Anytime a BU doesn't make a call at any base, they no longer own the call and must give it up to partner."

I disagree. I do not transfer a call; I still own it. I am only looking to partner for a "TAG?" or "PULL?" answer. Then I am going to make the call.

"That call at 3rd or home has a higher priority that one at 1B."

Disagree. In our situation, there is not going to be a call at 3B or home until after the play at 1B. As PU I will be staying in foul territory and moving to the holding position along 3B line. But my first priority is still the 1B line. I still have Obs, Int, tag out, 3' lane violation, and pulled foot/swipe tag responsibilities. Then - I can move to 3B or back to home to call the second play.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue

"Anytime a BU doesn't make a call at any base, they no longer own the call and must give it up to partner."

I disagree. I do not transfer a call; I still own it. I am only looking to partner for a "TAG?" or "PULL?" answer. Then I am going to make the call.

Yes, the umpire manual says to ask for help if in doubt, before making the call. It also states that the plate umpire make the call, not the umpire which requested help. However, this cannot apply at all times because the PU is not always supposed to be watching your play.

At the upper levels of SP, if you think F3 didn't hold the base on a play, you may spend half the game pointing toward your partner. You're not guessing an out, you are making the call you see.

"That call at 3rd or home has a higher priority that one at 1B."

Disagree. In our situation, there is not going to be a call at 3B or home until after the play at 1B. As PU I will be staying in foul territory and moving to the holding position along 3B line. But my first priority is still the 1B line. I still have Obs, Int, tag out, 3' lane violation, and pulled foot/swipe tag responsibilities. Then - I can move to 3B or back to home to call the second play.

WMB

And you think F3 is going to wait for that call before continuing with a throw to 3B or home? You believe that a call on a potentional winning score is not as important as a call four bases away?

You're job is to stay with the ball. F3 will have that ball at 3B before you can answer your partner. Once there is a runner past 1B, your priorities are 3rd and home. Don't believe me, read the book.

Can you help, if necessary? Yes, but that is not your priority and your partner shouldn't be expecting help.

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
1. Going to partner for help. Before or after your call?

2. Checked Swing with 2 strikes (FP).... I prefer not to appeal, telling the coach that I have the call. If I do go to partner, he better echo my call.

1. To-MA-to, To-MAH-to. I don't think it makes a penny worth of difference.

2. I will always go to my partner when asked and I always want their honest opinion, even in this case. If I'm on top of my game I will come up asking on a dropped third strike if I think there is one iota of a chance that the batter attempted at it.

[Bandit]

Wow, this situation brought back some serious pain. FU can back me up on this. And in fact if we wanted to we could find a past thread on this very subject started by myself I believe. Woulnd'nt it be nice if the "search" worked. 16 & Under "A" State last summer. I'm plate. Runner on third. Batter checks her swing on a 2 & 2 count. Ball gets by catcher. Batter becomes batter-runner and goes to first base. Runner on third stays. No thought on my part that the batter had swung in any way, shape, or form. Called runner back from first. By the way this was a right handed batter. Batter gets back into the batter box and then the defensive coach asks the pitcher to ask about the checked swing. I have UP TO THIS POINT always gone to my partner when asked. I did again this time and NEVER thought he would be able to claim that she swung. HE CALLED A STRIKE. I turned to meet my new friend. The third base coach. We had to live with the called third strike. I've always thought I put the runner in jepordy on this call. I have seen or heard several different solutions for this action. The one I've decided to live with is that I will have to take SERIOUS consideration of the partner I have on the bases and possible NOT go to my partner even when asked to do so in a situation such as this. I'd rather live with the coach being mad or upset with me for refuses to go to my partner (which is still a request and not an absolute have to) than to have caoch upset with the fact that I put a batter-runner in jepordy.

[rwest]

Originally posted by Bandit
Wow, this situation brought back some serious pain. FU can back me up on this. And in fact if we wanted to we could find a past thread on this very subject started by myself I believe. Woulnd'nt it be nice if the "search" worked. 16 & Under "A" State last summer. I'm plate. Runner on third. Batter checks her swing on a 2 & 2 count. Ball gets by catcher. Batter becomes batter-runner and goes to first base. Runner on third stays. No thought on my part that the batter had swung in any way, shape, or form. Called runner back from first. By the way this was a right handed batter. Batter gets back into the batter box and then the defensive coach asks the pitcher to ask about the checked swing. I have UP TO THIS POINT always gone to my partner when asked. I did again this time and NEVER thought he would be able to claim that she swung. HE CALLED A STRIKE. I turned to meet my new friend. The third base coach. We had to live with the called third strike. I've always thought I put the runner in jepordy on this call. I have seen or heard several different solutions for this action. The one I've decided to live with is that I will have to take SERIOUS consideration of the partner I have on the bases and possible NOT go to my partner even when asked to do so in a situation such as this. I'd rather live with the coach being mad or upset with me for refuses to go to my partner (which is still a request and not an absolute have to) than to have caoch upset with the fact that I put a batter-runner in jepordy.

I'm new to FP, so bare with me here. When your partner called the third strike on appeal, after you brought the batter back home, does the catcher now have to tag or throw the runner out at first, since the ball was originally dropped? Could you not have awarded the runner 1B since she made it there safely on the original play? I know this is not basketball, but I call NFHS and we have the ability to correct certain situations when we place one or both teams in jeopardy. Seems like FP softball should have such a rule in this scenario.

[mo99]

I agree with rwest.BR had already aquired first base on the dropped third strike.She must have obviously believed she offered at the pitch to run on a 2-2 count.The plate umpires call of ball 3 would have brought her back to the box,but the BU ruled a swing which should have allowed her to go back to the base she reached after the "dropped third strike.Where did you put the batter after the appeal?

Jeff
NCAA Umpire
NFHS Umpire
ASA Umpire

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Bandit
Wow, this situation brought back some serious pain. FU can back me up on this. And in fact if we wanted to we could find a past thread on this very subject started by myself I believe. Woulnd'nt it be nice if the "search" worked. 16 & Under "A" State last summer. I'm plate. Runner on third. Batter checks her swing on a 2 & 2 count. Ball gets by catcher. Batter becomes batter-runner and goes to first base. Runner on third stays. No thought on my part that the batter had swung in any way, shape, or form. Called runner back from first. By the way this was a right handed batter. Batter gets back into the batter box and then the defensive coach asks the pitcher to ask about the checked swing. I have UP TO THIS POINT always gone to my partner when asked. I did again this time and NEVER thought he would be able to claim that she swung. HE CALLED A STRIKE. I turned to meet my new friend. The third base coach. We had to live with the called third strike. I've always thought I put the runner in jepordy on this call. I have seen or heard several different solutions for this action. The one I've decided to live with is that I will have to take SERIOUS consideration of the partner I have on the bases and possible NOT go to my partner even when asked to do so in a situation such as this. I'd rather live with the coach being mad or upset with me for refuses to go to my partner (which is still a request and not an absolute have to) than to have caoch upset with the fact that I put a batter-runner in jepordy.

Speaking ASA

This is a different situation. To begin, the BR did run to 1B. When you returned her to the plate, the ball had to be dead. When the coach asks for an appeal, the ball is dead, or, at least, it should have been. When you partner calls it a strike, put her back on 1B.