Line-Up (Also Hi-Jacked)

[whiskers_ump]

Obviously Glen has nothing to do since it is raining. No, I was
not involved.

Situation: Bottom on 2nd, Flex bats for DP (unreported). Top or 3rd, DP returns to field (unreported). Bottom of 4 Flex again bats for same DP (unreported). Two batters later visiting coach comes to me and tells me that home team had a BBO violation two batters
ago and asked what would happen if she would have reported it before pitch to next batter. I explained that batting out of order needed to occur before first pitch to next batter. Coach said she was going to save until later in the game. At this point I had no idea that Flex had been batting for DP all game (since unreported). In the top of 5th DP should have become illegal substitute since she is in violation of re-entry rule. In the bottom of 6th inning the Flex again batted for the DP, but made an out. Visiting coach said nothing.
Question: Since all of these actions were unreported, and visiting coach was asking about a batting out of order violation should I have investigated and identified DP as illegal substitute? I actually did nothing until after the game then met with home coach to teach her about DP/Flex. How would you have handled?

[rwest]

At our local FP Development School, I was told that a player is not legally out of the game if an illegal substitue is made. In the case where the FLEX hits for the DP without announcement, is the DP legally out of the game? I don't believe so. Therefore, when he came back in the game for the 2nd time, since he was never legally substituted for, then isn't he legal?

Another example we went over at the school was something like this....


Sub1 subs for the starting DP in the 3rd. In the 4th, the starting DP comes back in and Sub2 subs for B3. In the 5th, B3 comes back in. In the 6th, Sub2 subs for the DP. This is illegal. The DP can come back in because they were not legally out of the game when Sub2 subbed in for them.

Also, since the defense never appealed and brought it to your attention, would you consider that the DP had left the game twice? Can you go back and make that determination after several innings have elapsed?

[mcrowder]

If coach didn't bring this to your attention as an illegal substitute, I would not go digging. Did you actually notice the illegal substitutions going on as they happened? If you didn't, are you now taking the visiting coaches word that all this was happening all this time?

I think you have nothing here.

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by rwest
...I was told that a player is not legally out of the game if an illegal substitue is made.

I think I read a play in the NFHS case book. I believe it dealt with an illegal sub reporting for a player and thus being restricted to the dugout. In the solution, it stated that the original player could re-enter if she had eligability, otherwise a legal sub could take her place.

[whiskers_ump]

I was not involved with this situation, but a member of the chapter
I belong to was. Below is answer sent to him by Emily.


Wow. What a mess. You are right that umpires do not get involved with batting out of order because it is not our job to verify each batter as he/she comes to the plate. The rules state the offended team needs to bring it to our attention. If we should notice, discreet preventative umpiring could be in order but we must exercise caution because we may notice for one team and not the other and that gives the apperance of bias. So it is best that umpires wait until it is brought to our attention.

The legal/illegal subbing unreported is something we cannot do anything about becasue we do not know. If we see it happening - coach telling new players to go in - we should be proactive in getting the changes before there is a violation. Otherwise it is up to the teams (either one) to tell us about it.

Batting out of order must involve players who are in the batting order. So if a new player bats, then the violation is unreported or illegal subbing and not batting out of order.

Now - for your situation and what I would do. Consider, please, that this is only possible suggestion. Not having the "flavor" of the game I cannot say specifically that this or that should have been done. These sometimes are gut feels the umpire must go by.

Once the coach brought to my attention that something fishy was going on and I got the sense that it was more than batting out of order, I might have taken the opportunity between innings to reinforce to the suspect coach that any and all changes of any kind - including the DP/FLEX - must come through me. If the coach then fesses up that they have been doing all this stuff, you tell them it is done but from now on, do it right. Because, unless the illegal/unreported player is in the game, we really cannot go back and reconstructed when/if they were in the game earlier. What is on our lineup card or who is out there physically in the game is official and all we have to go by. Like, in your case, the DP was not an illegal sub because you never had her leaving and coming back and leaving again....even though she did.

It is a tough situation. Doing nothing during the game but addressing it afterwards was as good as anything you could do. Hang in there.

Emily Alexander