What's the call? ASA and FED

[SamNVa]

R1 is off with the pitch when the batter hits a deep fly ball to right field. R1 is well past 2nd base when F9 makes a spectacular catch. The throw from F9 to F3 for the live ball appeal hits the BR who has just rounded 1st base and goes into dead ball territory. R1 was between 2nd and 3rd base when F9 released the throw, but has rounded 2nd and is heading back to 1st when the ball actually goes into DBT.

What's the call in ASA and FED rules and what happens to R1?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA

The time of the throw and the time the ball enters DBT is irrelevent. R1 is declared out as the closest runner to home plate at the time another runner which has already been put out interferes with the play. Right?






WRONG!

Unless the BR intentionally interfered with the play, there is no interference.

If R1 returns and touches 1B, he has successfully completed his tag up. However, in accordance with rule 8.6.G, when a ball leaves the playing area or becomes blocked, a runner is awarded two bases governed by the position of the runner when the ball left the fielder's hand.

Therefore, after touching 1B, R1 is entitled to touch 2B, 3B and Home in that order, without liability to be put out.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Damn Sam......took a bit to sort this one out......but...Ok I'll bite........


ASA
The award is based on the position of the runner when the ball left the fielder's hand...ASA - 8-6-G .

When the ball goes into dead ball territory I am going to HOLLER "dead ball" and point at the runner and say "you.....home".

THE BALL TOUCHING THE BR IS IGNORED BECAUSE IT IS NOT INTENTIONAL

R1 may return to 1st to retouch once the ball becomes dead.....because she retouched 2nd on her way back to first before the ball becomes dead......ASA 8-6-G-EXCEPTION-2. When the ball becomes dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or a base left too soon if he has advanced, touched, and remains a base beyond the missed base or the base left too soon.

This is the trick of Sam's play......the award is made from the time of the throw.....but the runner has retreated back past 2nd when the ball actually goes into DBT.....which allows her to legally retouch 1st.

This is a good one Sam......and if it ever happened to me in a game I will now be ready for it.

By rule.......the runner is awarded home......and she may legally retouch 1st......kind-of a double jeopardy on the defense on this one.

If she does re-touch......she gets home......if not......she is in jeopardy of being called out for not retouching.

Took me a minute to catch what your "trick" was on this one.

Now for FED........this one I am not nearly as confident on......

The award is the same on the throw going out of play......so you will award the runner home......I cannot find similar language on when a runner may NOT return to re-touch a base left too soon.

Gonna have to treat this the same as ASA.

I know I am wrong, because Sammo' would not have made the distinction if they were the same.....but cannot find any documentation to back up my gut feeling.

Joel

[Roger Greene]

OK, I'll bite.
Speeking Fed.

I'm gonna give R1 third base. She was between 2nd and third when the ball left the throwers hand, but because of the catch on the batted ball she had not "leagaly" reached 2nd. That is why she was returning to retouch first.

Now I'm gonna go hit the books and see if I can find the justification.

Roger Greene,
Member UT

[Roger Greene]

O.K. Here goes.

Fed rules. I can find no Fed case book play to match this sitch.

Fed baseball rules and Fed softball rules match on this base award. The BRD has no listing of a difference for ruling on this sitch between Fed, NCCA, or OBR.

Therefor from the NAPBL 3.11 example 2.

"Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into dugout. Runner is between second and third when ball goes out of paly.
RULING: Runner is awarded third (two bases from his original base). However while the ball is dead, he must return to and retouch first base. Furthermore, since he was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before he reaches and touches third (the next base). If he touches third, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, he is out at first."

I'll have to rest my arguement here.

(Fed softball 5-2-2b is the cite that prevents a runner from returning to a missed base or left too soon base on a dead ball. 8-4-2t makes her out if she is too far or continues on after the ball is dead.)

Roger Greene,
Member UT

P.S. I Just went by eTeamz.
Dang, Sam, 8-3-4a.2. I did all that work when the solution was right there!!! (At least I had her on the right base, even if it was for the wrong reason.)

Good Job.


Thanks,
Roger



[Edited by Roger Greene on Mar 2nd, 2001 at 09:46 AM]

[SamNVa]

Mike and Joel are dead on with the ASA ruling. Special kudos to Joel for the excellent explanation which saves me from having to do one here.

Roger has the right answer for FED, the runner is only awarded 3rd base, but the justification is a bit easier to come by. FED Rule 8-3-4 says:

An award is from the base determined as follows:

a. The pitch:

2. For a runner required to tag up after a caught fly ball.

So in ASA and FED, the runner is allowed to retouch 1st, but the award in ASA is home whereas the award in FED is 3rd base.

I hope you enjoyed this little exercise and thanks for playing. 8-)