What would you call?

[greymule]

I had this play in an ASA game last year. Believe it or not, these were fairly high-level teams.

Abel on 2B, 1 out. Baker hits a deep fly to left-center. Abel mistakenly thinks there are 2 out and runs. As F8 gets a bead on the ball, the 3B coach informs Abel that there is only 1 out. Confused, Abel steps over 3B, takes a few steps toward home, and then, as F8 make the catch, remonstrates with the 3B coach for misleading him about the number of outs.

F8 fires to 2B to get Abel, but the throw is in the dirt, bounces off F4, and rolls to F2. Abel, still assuming he's a dead duck, stands in the baseline and continues complaining to his coach.

However, F2's throw to 2B sails into right center, and with the outfielders having run in, rolls to the fence. Abel now decides it's worth trying to return to 2B. He runs directly to 2B from his position part way down the 3B line. Abel not only makes it back to 2B, but with the defense moving slowly while arguing that Abel committed one violation or another, runs to 3B and stops there.

The defense now tags Abel, while some players appeal that he missed 3B originally and others appeal that he missed 3B on his return. They also claim that Abel ran out of the baseline.

What would you call?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by greymule
What would you call?

TIME

And then nothing unless or until the defense made a single proper appeal. Since Able is now standing on 2nd (I am assuming she was on 2nd at the time of the tag), then the leaving early appeal is gone. The only appeal left is missing 3rd on the return.

[greymule]

Abel is now standing on 3B.

[3afan]

ok, i'll take a shot .. you dont have anything since (1) abel never touched 3rd so he dont have to retouch it going back to 2nd and (2) no out of baseline since he wasn't avoiding a tag

[greymule]

abel never touched 3rd so he dont have to retouch it going back to 2nd

Because he passed over 3B, he still has to touch 3B when returning, even though he missed it the first time by.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule


However, F2's throw to 2B sails into right center, and with the outfielders having run in, rolls to the fence. Abel now decides it's worth trying to return to 2B. He runs directly to 2B from his position part way down the 3B line. Abel not only makes it back to 2B, but with the defense moving slowly while arguing that Abel committed one violation or another, runs to 3B and stops there.

The defense now tags Abel, while some players appeal that he missed 3B originally and others appeal that he missed 3B on his return. They also claim that Abel ran out of the baseline.

What would you call?

TIME is exactly what I would call since there are multiple players spouting out numerous appeals and it seems that R1 has decided to stay on a particular base for a while.

There is no ruling for out of the baseline for two reasons: 1) there is no such rule, and 2) the rule that does exist, the runner would have to be avoiding a tag for it to apply.

If the defense properly appeals R1 missing 3B while advancing, or while retreating to 2B, R1 is ruled out.

[Roger Greene]

"If the defense properly appeals R1 missing 3B while advancing, or while retreating to 2B, R1 is ruled out.
__________________
Mike Rowe
ASA Umpire"

Mike,
There is no "last time by" in softball?

I was running over in my mind if I would honor the appeal for missing while retreating, but was not considering honoring an appeal on missing while advancing.

As for the retreating miss, from the disctiption it could be considered a gross miss, and not correctable. If it had been a slight miss, and the runer was now standing on 3rd, I probably wouldn't honor an appeal for that either.

Roger Greene

[whiskers_ump]

Roger wrote: If it had been a slight miss, and the runer was now standing on 3rd, I probably wouldn't honor an appeal for that either.

Is that like no harm no foul? Or the light turned red only
seconds before I ran it!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Roger Greene
"If the defense properly appeals R1 missing 3B while advancing, or while retreating to 2B, R1 is ruled out.
__________________
Mike Rowe
ASA Umpire"

Mike,
There is no "last time by" in softball?

That is not only a question, but a true statement.

I was running over in my mind if I would honor the appeal for missing while retreating, but was not considering honoring an appeal on missing while advancing.

As for the retreating miss, from the disctiption it could be considered a gross miss, and not correctable. If it had been a slight miss, and the runer was now standing on 3rd, I probably wouldn't honor an appeal for that either.

Roger Greene

Roger,

You need to get that other game out of your head here. There is no allowance for "neighborhood" contact with a base, by either offense or defense.

Speaking ASA, when a runner passes a base they are considered to have touched it (still subject to a missed base appeal) for the purpose of all other rules.

[3afan]

well, once again i learn something new ... or at least have it clarified in my mind ...... thanks

[Roger Greene]

I'll take your word, Mike, that softball does not recognize "last time by" (I can't recall any case plays dealing wiht it in softball, and don't have any references with me today)but that makes the appeal process pretty interesting then.

Given this play with an addition that the runner wasn't standing on 3rd when the play ended, but instead through some other misplay had advanced home to score we are faced with this problem.

The runner who has scored has passed 3rd base 3 times, (1)first time by advancing=miss number 1; (2) second time by retreating=miss number 2; (3)third time by advancing=touch number 1.

Now for the appeal, F5 in possession of the ball touches 3rd base and appeals that the runner missed 3rd.

Do we now:
Ask which time or pick out the time ourslelves?

If we ask which time, at what point do we stop letting F5 guess which time we observed?

If we just honor the appeal without making any distinction on which time by is being appealed, how do we maintian any creditability with the observers and participants who only observed the runner clearly tag 3rd base on her way to score?

I'm not trying to argue that the interpertation of "last time by" is applied to softball, just that by not adopting this interp that the "other game" has, we may be opening up a can of worms that I won't have to deal with when doing those "other games"

Roger Greene

[greymule]

I always thought that ASA did recognize "last time by," though (unlike OBR) it did not differentiate between a regular miss (within a body length, correctable after the fact) and a gross miss (by more than a body length, not correctable).

In OBR, in the play in question, Abel would be called out if the defense appealed that he missed 3B on his return to 2B. By missing 3B by more than a body length, Abel committed a gross error that cannot be corrected after the fact. However, his miss the first time by was corrected "last time by," as he is now standing on 3B.

If there is no "last time by" in softball, then we have to call Abel out on appeal in the following play:

Abel on 1B, no outs. Baker hits a liner into right-center. Abel rounds 2B and is on his way to 3B when F9 makes a diving catch. F9 gets up and fires a long throw toward 1B as Abel begins to retreat. Abel misses 2B on the return. F9's throw to 1B gets away and into DBT as Abel slides back into 1B. Abel is properly awarded, yes, home by the umpire (3B in OBR). Abel then touches 2B, 3B, and home plate in proper order. The defense then appeals that Abel missed 2B on his return after F9's catch.

If there's no "last time by in ASA," Abel must be called out on appeal. And when did Abel lose the right to correct his mistake? When he touched 1B? Hard to believe.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Roger Greene
I'll take your word, Mike, that softball does not recognize "last time by" (I can't recall any case plays dealing wiht it in softball, and don't have any references with me today)but that makes the appeal process pretty interesting then.

Given this play with an addition that the runner wasn't standing on 3rd when the play ended, but instead through some other misplay had advanced home to score we are faced with this problem.

The runner who has scored has passed 3rd base 3 times, (1)first time by advancing=miss number 1; (2) second time by retreating=miss number 2; (3)third time by advancing=touch number 1.

Now for the appeal, F5 in possession of the ball touches 3rd base and appeals that the runner missed 3rd.

Do we now:
Ask which time or pick out the time ourslelves? If we ask which time, at what point do we stop letting F5 guess which time we observed?

When you believe that the defense is guessing. If it is apparent that they know they saw a violation and they are just trying to match-up what they saw with what the umpire saw, there is no problem with multiple appeals.

If we just honor the appeal without making any distinction on which time by is being appealed, how do we maintian any creditability with the observers and participants who only observed the runner clearly tag 3rd base on her way to score?

I will ask them which runner they are appealing and what they are appealing. If there are multiple passes, I may ask which time. If I believe they know or are simply reruning the play in their mind, I'll allow that. If they just start throwing out numbers, the first one is it. This is one of those things that the umpire will know when they have a clue or are just guessing.

I'm not trying to argue that the interpertation of "last time by" is applied to softball, just that by not adopting this interp that the "other game" has, we may be opening up a can of worms that I won't have to deal with when doing those "other games"

Roger Greene

I don't see your "can of worms" at all. Either the player runs the bases in a legal order or they don't. Under a "last time by" you can have the following:

(base of play hijacked from greymule)

Abel on 1B, no outs. Baker hits a long fly ball into right-center. Abel rounds 2B and is on his way to 3B when F9 makes a diving catch and collides with the fence. F9 gets the wind knocked out of him and isn't capable of getting the ball back to the infield. Abel deadheads across the infield and retouches 1B. Seeing F9 still holding the ball, Abel takes off toward 2B and continues to 3B when the weak throw doesn't reach the cut-off F4.

The defense appeals Abel missing 2B when returning to retouch 1B. Based on the "last time by" theory, the umpire must deny the appeal because Abel touched 2B on the way to 3B.

Now, I know what's coming next, "but Blue, he didn't even try! He missed it by a mile!"

Well, that's just tough, isn't it? There is no rule book of which I'm aware that allows a runner to just outright miss the base if he is close enough and still be ruled safe. ASA makes it plain and simple, either you touch the base every time you are supposed to touch it or you don't. Period! If you fail to perform as a runner, YOU placed yourself in jeopardy, not the defense, not your coach, not the umpire, not the fans, but YOU!

[Roger Greene]

"Abel deadheads across the infield and"

That is where the gross miss comes in. Greymule mentioned that. A gross miss cannot be corrected by last time by.

But we digress. This is a baseball discussion on a softball board now. Maybe the interp is there because the field is larger, and the customs are different.

Thanks,
Roger

[greymule]

Now I'm very confused. So in ASA a runner cannot correct a previous miss by touching the base the last time by.

In that case:

1. Abel on 1B. Baker lines to right-center. Abel rounds (touches) 2B and F9 makes the catch. Abel misses 2B on the return but makes it back to 1B as F9's throw gets away. Abel tags 1B and runs to 2B.

Abel is standing on 2B when the defense tags him and appeals that he missed 2B on the return to 1B.

No last time by. Out.

2. Same play but Abel misses 2B as he rounds it. On the return he touches 2B. The throw gets away. Abel touches 1B and runs to 2B.

Abel is standing on 2B when the defense tags him and appeals that he missed 2B the first time by.

It's a missed base. Abel is out on appeal.

After the throw gets away (still in LBT) and Abel has returned to 1B, does he have to run to 2B, correct whatever miss he made the first or second time by, then return to 1B, and then, if he has time, run to 2B again?

Or, once he touches 1B, is it impossible for him to correct his error?


[Edited by greymule on Dec 23rd, 2004 at 10:39 PM]