The Basketbrawl & Softball

[3afan]

Early this morning I was walking my dog & I was listening to a discussion about the brawl in Detroit. That got me to thinking - what should softball officials do in the case of the bench clearing brawl, or just a fight? I don't recall this being addressed in any TASO, ASA or USSSA clinic I've attended.

Now I know what I would do. I'd get out of harm's way, and starting taking numbers so when its all over I can decide who goes and who stays. But I would not get involved in breaking up the fight, I'd let the coaches, administrators, etc, handle that.

Thoughts?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by 3afan
Early this morning I was walking my dog & I was listening to a discussion about the brawl in Detroit. That got me to thinking - what should softball officials do in the case of the bench clearing brawl, or just a fight? I don't recall this being addressed in any TASO, ASA or USSSA clinic I've attended.

Now I know what I would do. I'd get out of harm's way, and starting taking numbers so when its all over I can decide who goes and who stays. But I would not get involved in breaking up the fight, I'd let the coaches, administrators, etc, handle that.

Thoughts?

Unless you are a sworn law enforcement officer within your jurisdiction, you get the hell out of the way and start taking numbers.

You DON'T:

Touch any of the players, fans, coaches or anyone else involved;

Try to stand in the way of potential participants;

Try to keep people in the game if they left the dugout or playing position to take part in the fray.

You DO:

Move to a safe position, even if it means going into the outfield or dugout;

Record the number of EVERY player involved;

Record the number, name or whatever you need to identify a coach, manager, scorekeeper or whomever gets involved and goes BEYOND the point of making a non-violent attempt to intercede;

Diligently eject AND REPORT all those which you removed from the game. If that leaves either or both teams with fewer than the required players, so be it!

Remember, your job is to do your job, not someone else's. If you want to be the "nice guy" and just let it go so they can finish the game on the field, you are not doing anyone, especially your fellow umpires, any favors.

[whiskers_ump]

We are not riot control. I agree, take numbers, stay
in safe location. When it is over, eject the necessary
participants. If any left to complete the game, get
it on.

[WestMichBlue]

I do not disagee with anything said above, but I have to ask: Is Softball somehow different than Basketball or Football or Hockey - where it is the responsibility of the officials to break up fights between game participants?

One comment about the BB Brawl that I have seen and heard in several places is that the referees did not do enough to separate the players in the initial fracas. By allowing it to go on too long they unwittingly allowed the fans to get riled up and involved.

I don't want to open an argument here about that point nor the idiot fans or RA's stupid actions. But why are umpires supposed to step aside and let players brawl - and our counterparts in other sports are require to break it up?

WMB

[whiskers_ump]

WMB,

I don't watch much hockey, but what I have seen when fights
break out, they let them go. They have sticks, our combatants
have bats. I am staying away. My contract says nothing about me
getting in the middle of a cat fight and breaking it up. That is
the coaches job. Now if I was a refree for a boxing match, that
would require me to break it up at certain moments.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
I do not disagee with anything said above, but I have to ask: Is Softball somehow different than Basketball or Football or Hockey - where it is the responsibility of the officials to break up fights between game participants?

Absolutely! Softball umpires are much smarter and realize that we do not play the role of police, but that of the judge.

One comment about the BB Brawl that I have seen and heard in several places is that the referees did not do enough to separate the players in the initial fracas. By allowing it to go on too long they unwittingly allowed the fans to get riled up and involved.

Standard whining by the weak finger-pointing, gotta-find-a-scapegoat society that has developed all too well in this country. It wasn't the officials which "allowed the fans to get riled up", it was the idiot players, coaches, facility management and security, none of which wear a striped shirt. The "heat of the game" excuse is so lame it needs to be brought out in a wheelchair. You are talking about alleged adults getting paid an obscene amount of money for playing a child's game. You are also talking about a management position which sells seats for an obscene amount of money that places the fans so close they can smell the jock itch powder the players are using.

If the NBA has any balls, and I don't pretend that I think they do, they would fine every player and coach involved $500K. Fine each team owner one million dollars and require the facility to post a $10 million dollar bond that they will forfeit if the fail to bring their facility to a high-level of security during the remaining games for the remainder of their contract with the NBA team.

Every individual, whether player or fan, should be criminally charged with any possible violation of the law available. They should also be required to sign a waiver forfeiting their rights to bring a lawsuit against the player. The players involved should be held equally accountable as it relates to legal action.

Is this extreme? Not if you were an innnocent fan who was injured during this fray or a player who was not active in the debacle who was attacked and/or injured.

Will it help? Absolutely! And not just because it is a large chunk of change for the player, but when you start screwing with the owner and coach's pocketbook, it will definitely get their attention. I may also make teams think twice about signing some of the "hoods" like Sprewell and Artest to a large contract.

I don't want to open an argument here about that point nor the idiot fans or RA's stupid actions. But why are umpires supposed to step aside and let players brawl - and our counterparts in other sports are require to break it up?

WMB

For all the reasons listed above. Mama Gump was right, "Stupid is as stupid does!"

If you want to step into a brawl, knock yourself out if someone doesn't beat you to it. Be prepared to enjoy all the facits of our legal system. Be prepared to take time off of your job to spend time being deposed and in court. Be prepared to be sued. Be prepared for get a call from the sanctioning body which carries the insurance and any additional insurance you may have from NASO or anywhere else, to suggest that it may be in your best interest to retain a personal lawyer should any judgment be in excess of your liability coverage. If our couterparts in other sports are that stupid, that is their problem.

Did your parents ever ask you, "If Johnnie jumped off the bridge, would you do it too?" To be honest, I think that is part of the ego problem with some officials. Like I said, an umpire's job is to pass judgment on what happens, not control the extracurricular activities.

I believe the rule book (ASA) refers to an umpiring "administering" the game.

[bkbjones]

This fall there was a bad incident in Oregon.
Unfortunately, I don't know EXACTLY what the umpires did, but I do know what happened.
On the last play of the game, a runner slid hard into the catcher on the other team. The catcher was not involved in the play...the ball was hit to another infielder, and the batter was retired at first. The runner coming from third slid into the catcher basically because the catcher was standing on the plate.
The out was recorded at first and the game was over.
The teams were gathering for their post-game handshakes when the catcher and third baseman for the defensive team started hitting the girl who slid into the catcher. One player had removed her shoes (and their non-metal cleats) and pummeled the girl on the ground for several seconds.

The fight (if it's two-on-zero, is it really a fight???) lasted less than a minute, but was very out-of-the-ordinary to say the least. It happened in Oregon, in a softball-hotbed area.

I have not heard or seen any official repercussions, but...

In any previous encounters I have had, I have done the same as Mike and others...gone to the dugout when it's beyond the point of no return, record names and numbers, and stay the heck out of the way. I have no desire to be around a bunch of folks -- especially adrenalin-charged adolescents or young adults -- brandishing aluminum nightsticks.

I am, however, happy to note that in all the years I have been around baseball and softball I have been in such situations less than a handful of times. Been around fights? Yep...the usual baseball-type chicken fights where someone would have to go out of their way to get hurt.

RA getting booted for the rest of the year is TOO LIGHT, IMHO. Didn't like him much before this, like him less now. The man needs help...

[whiskers_ump]

RA got what he deserved. No room for fighting in any
sport except boxing and related sports.

[MDblue]

Ok, it's time for a response from Indiana.

I've got absolutely no problem with what the suspensions handed down today, and I'm a huge Pacers fan. First and foremost, those players are professionals whether they want to be or not. You cannot go into the stands and do what they did.

Now onto the officiating part of it: In hockey, if you really pay attention, the linesmen get out of the way until the players fall to the ice so that can be more easily separated. If you think back to Friday night, the referees were trying to separate the teams on the court, but it was 20 players/coaches and only 3 referees. That isn't going to work.

The same thing in softball or baseball -- you've got at least 9 players from the defensive team on the field plus the offensive players and you want the 2 (or 3) umpires to keep them from going at it -- IT'S NOT HAPPENING!. If you think back to when the Red Sox and Yankees went at it in June of this year, Bruce Froemming was the plate umpire and he was trying to keep A-rod and Varitek apart, but he couldn't do it all. He simply got out of dodge because you can't keep all those people apart. I have had a fight in a game once, and all you can do is stand back and take all the numbers you can. Besides, I'm not getting in there because I'm not going to get injured.

[Bandit]

It wasn't over one of your obstruction calls was it ?

[WestMichBlue]

In professional sports, officials don't "run and hide." They have specific duties in a player fracas.

Despite negative comments about the Detroit game referees, I have watched enough tape this weekend to believe that they did their job correctly. One official is responsible to get between the two instigators. Obviously in the NBA this is a serious physical mis-match, but NBA players know that they are not going to attack the referee. (But then, they are also supposed to know not to go into the bleachers.)

The second official is supposed to keep the remaining players on their benches. The third official stands back as an observer, removed from the scene.

If you watch hockey you'll see the same response from the officials there. Initially the officials will attempt to break up a fight. Only when they can't will they let them go until they fall to the ice. Meanwhile other officials are tying up players to keep them out of the fight.

Obviously, if you get a multi-player fracas going, like Saturday in South Carolina, the officials might as well hide and wait it out.

As for softball, if I am close enough to two players that I sense are going at each other then I will quickly step between them and use my presence and verbal warnings to keep them separated. And at 6-1/265 not too many teenage girls are going to challenge me. I expect my partner to move in and attempt to keep other players from joining in.

If they get past me, or I am not near them, or many players are getting involved then it has to be up to the coaches and administrators to quell the action. Then I step back and take numbers.

If I see an action that is potentially injurious or life threatening I will take action. If a larger player has another down and is beating viciously on her, or someone comes on the field swinging a bat I will get involved physically. I may be legally correct for not getting involved, but I am not made that way.

WMB

[greymule]

Remember that the NBA commissioner can hand down all the penalties he wants, but the players' union will be fighting any and all punishment. The lawyers are no doubt already preparing their defenses. I couldn't tell for sure, but it seemed that the hostile fans were all or mostly all white. Maybe Jesse Jackson will get involved to prevent any "injustice." Those suspensions may not be served fully or anywhere near fully.

What actual penalty did Roberto Alomar suffer for spitting on that umpire in 1996?

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by greymule
What actual penalty did Roberto Alomar suffer for spitting on that umpire in 1996?

Five game suspension (served at the beginning of 1997 and with pay), $50,000 dollar fine, and then of his own free will he donated an additional $232,000(the amount of pay he made while suspended)to charity.

I think that the reason that this was so mild, by comparison, was that a)both were employees of the sport and its respective associations, and b)apparently Hirshbeck threatened Alomar the morning following the incident. Keep in mind that no fans were hurt in the making of this suspension, and therefore no potential lawsuits were laid.

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by greymule
Remember that the NBA commissioner can hand down all the penalties he wants, but the players' union will be fighting any and all punishment.

This is true, but I sincerely doubt that in the case of Artest they will win. Remember, last season Todd Bertuzzi was suspended for the remainder of the season, including playoffs, for an incident that happened on the ice and didn't involve any fans, and his suspension stuck despite appeals by the player's union. Also, in MLB, Frank Francisco lost the remainder of his season (16 games) after an appeal was denied.

[greymule]

therefore no potential lawsuits were laid

You can bet that by now every fan hit by a player in that melee in Detroit has a lawyer with visions of sugarplums dancing in his head.

Of course, the world has changed, but Ty Cobb once attacked a wheelchair-bound heckler. He also knifed a hotel employee who wouldn't let him in the service entrance late at night, fired shots at Philadelphia A's fans (who returned fire), and practically killed a black groundskeeper who had failed to remove his cap before greeting him good morning. As far as I know, there were no significant repercussions in any of those cases except that the Tigers agreed to pay the medical expenses of the hotel employee.