Mechanics

[jstark23]

I wasn't challenging you WMB, I just didn't happen to agree with your previous post and if you took it as anything more personal than that I apologize greatly for heavens sake those kind of things are better left to those guys on the other stick and ball sport... that being said, I do agree with your last post, there is no way to get back to first base line extended for a play at the plate from a trail position without crossing a throwing lane, the other thing is PU's 1st base responsibility is swipe tag and pulled foot both calls that require a good field of vision so you aren't losing all that much by not trailing... Happy Thanksgiving

[WestMichBlue]

"if you took it as anything more personal than that"

Not at all, John. I posted my position; you challenged it; and I went to the book to refute you. But I couldn't. All I ended up doing was agreeing with you.

This is how we get better. We disagree, and we go to the book. Then we learn.

WMB

Now go enjoy that turkey!

[whiskers_ump]

Guys,

Worked with a guy in NFHS and we worked out a pretty
good way to handle this situation.

Runner on 2B - BU had responsibilty for that runner until she stopped or scored.
PU had BR until she stopped.

We always discussed this procedures prior to games. Lived in same
town, drove to games together.

We used hand signals to remind partner their responsibilies.

Yes, it was easy to go back when working with different partners. Others
liked the procedure we used and used it when working with one of us. We
did not push the change on anyone. It is simple and works well for such
plays as I presented. It is not that big of a change. Just remember
to communicate.

Obviously the thing I and my partner forgot in my presented situation.

Try it sometime, You'll like it.

(edited to correct spelling)

[Edited by whiskers_ump on Nov 25th, 2004 at 10:54 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Mike: ”Don't think so. If the umpire's do their job as prescribed, the present mechanic works quite well.”

OK, but what really is the prescribed mechanic for a runner at 2B? I know what you said above, and I’ve always agreed, and I echoed your comment in my response above. But when challenged by jstark23, I went to the ASA umpire’s manual to quote a specific line – and I couldn’t find it!

WMB

Try turning to page 243 of the 2004 ASA rule book, umpire's edition. The mechanics for both umpires with a runner on 2B only in FP are well defined.

I think too many place far too much emphasis on trailing the runner. Remember the priorities of a call are increased the closer you get to home. Therefore, it is more important for the PU to be in position for the call at 3B than to worry about a pulled foot. I DID NOT SAY THE PU SHOULD NOT HELP AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, OR THAT S/HE SHOULDN'T TRAIL THE BR.

Meanwhile, if you have the PU get into position for a call at 1B, you now have no one covering home should R1 fail to stop a 3B. I doubt quite seriously a BU is going to outrun her/him to the plate from outside the diamond. Now, the most important call has been left open because everyone is so damned worried about the call three bases away from a score.

[WestMichBlue]

You are sending conflicting messages here, Mike.

Mike: “Try turning to page 243 of the 2004 ASA rule book, umpire's edition. The mechanics for both umpires with a runner on 2B only in FP are well defined.”

When I said that I went to the book and couldn’t find the answer, I couldn’t find your answer when you said: ” Mistake #2. PU is only suppose to move down the line 20' at the most, maybe not as much knowing there was a possible play at 3B. PU should have been turned toward 3B, still watching 1B when the ball was received by F3. The FP field is not that big that the PU shouldn't have at least been in the vicinity of the circle when the play occured at 3B.”

I know what the book states, and I previously quoted it. Page 242 of the 2003 ASA rule book, umpire’s edition: “On hits, move toward third base. Be ready and in position to make a call by going down the left field foul line in foul ground.” On page 216 (Leaving the Plate Area left of Catcher . . . ) we also read “With no runners on base or a runner on first base only, . . . . follow the base runner toward first base in fair ground.”

Thus Mr. ASA of this board and the ASA Umpire Manual have conflicting positions. That is why I asked you ”OK, but what really is the prescribed mechanic for a runner at 2B?” I was looking for background ASA information that was not available to us just simply reading the book.

But now you equivocate: ”I think too many place far too much emphasis on trailing the runner. Remember the priorities of a call are increased the closer you get to home. Therefore, it is more important for the PU to be in position for the call at 3B than to worry about a pulled foot. I DID NOT SAY THE PU SHOULD NOT HELP AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, OR THAT S/HE SHOULDN'T TRAIL THE BR.”

Situation: a runner at 2nd base, and the ball hit on the infield. Question:[/I] Does the Plate Umpire (a) trail the B-R towards 1B, or (b) move up the 3rd base line?[/I]

A or B?

WMB

[whiskers_ump]

WMB writes:


"Thus Mr. ASA of this board"

I know no one has to defend Mike. Mike can speak for
himself.

Remarks such as this, in my opinion, are what is causing
a lot of presented posts from receiving the attention and
credibility they deserve.

Mike has never claimed to be the Mr. ASA of anything!
He clearly knows the rules and apparently does have some
input to higher ups that have aided in getting changes by
ASA.

You have a very good knowledge of the rule system also. (some
times a little lengthly) as noted by another of our esteem collegues,
but normally well presented.

However, I do see more "name calling" by you post than others.

Lets just try to answer the posters questions without "slurring"
the others who are also putting their input forth. We don't all
have the answers nor do the other posters that post here. That is
why they (we) visit this site. To try and learn. Not listen to
one umpire try and put down another. We at one time or another will
all post an answer that is incorrect or that we as individuals
disagree with, but I would hope that we, because of their answer, think
that they, the responder, feel that they are the final authority on
the subject. They merely offered their interpretation of the rule.







[Edited by whiskers_ump on Nov 26th, 2004 at 12:19 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

You are correct, there is nothing about trailing the BR once a runner attains 2B prior to the next pitch.

However, like it or not, it is taught to many umpires like backing up the BU at 1B is a priority. It is not, it is part of preventive umpiring and basically a courtesy to your partner.

For those who do, they should never go more than 20' up the line.

Of course, if you didn't compete with the size of War and Peace on every post . . . .

[scottk_61]

WMB,
I don't know what is going on with you and hope all is well but your posts of the last month or so are getting more confrontational and aggressive.
Are you ok, forget all the officiating stuff,
You have been on this board for a long time and I like your input.
So, this is about you.
What is going on,
Email me privately if you want or we can get together on the phone if you ask for my phone number or send me yours.

Scott

[WestMichBlue]

MR ASA

But he IS Mr. ASA of this board! That is not a derogatory statement, that is not name calling. That is a deferential acknowledgment by me of his “insider” status in ASA. However, he did make conflicting statements about the PU mechanic with a runner on 2B.

Now read what I said. “Thus Mr. ASA of this board and the ASA Umpire Manual have conflicting positions. That is why I asked you ”OK, but what really is the prescribed mechanic for a runner at 2B?” I was looking for background ASA information that was not available to us just simply reading the book.

Do I have to interpret that statement? I am simply asking what ASA knowledge he has to support his statement that the rest of us, who only have a printed manual, do not have access.

Keep in mind that many people read this board, seeking information, and not necessarily posting. We owe it to them, and everyone the have correct info here. Anybody that read this post could be confused, but the majority of voices are supporting the PU trailing the B-R to 1B.

I think that is incorrect. But if Mike has supplementary info to support that action, then we all need to hear it.

I still believe that once a runner is in scoring position the PU should NOT go into fair territory. He should go up 3B line and attempt to support the call at 1B as best he can from that position.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue


I think that is incorrect. But if Mike has supplementary info to support that action, then we all need to hear it.

I still believe that once a runner is in scoring position the PU should NOT go into fair territory. He should go up 3B line and attempt to support the call at 1B as best he can from that position.

WMB

And if you read my post, you would see that I agree.

And as I stated before, many do support trailing a BR even though it is not part of the 2-umpire mechanics. I do not. I may hesitate moving toward 3B to at least try to keep a workable angle should help be required at 1B, but I stay in foul ground anytime a runner begins @ 2B.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
That is a deferential acknowledgment by me of his “insider” status in ASA.

OK, but that is not how the printed words read (at least to me).

I'm catching up on the threads from the last week+, and I have to admit, WMB, when I read your reply using the "Mr ASA" title, I took it as pejorative, which I think is a reasonable (even if, as you further explain, incorrect) interpretation of your intent given the somewhat derisive view of ASA you've expressed in the past.

Just remember, we don't have the advantage of hearing your thoughts; we can only go by the words you type.

[argodad]

You guys are getting kinda touchy. Is the weather up north keeping you inside too long? Or is it a shortage of sunlight?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by argodad
You guys are getting kinda touchy. Is the weather up north keeping you inside too long? Or is it a shortage of sunlight?

Are you kidding?

The weather around here is GREAT! Wake up with a touch of frost on the grass, crisp clean air to breath. Clear skies with the highs reaching the mid-40's with a 5-8 mph breeze.

The fresh air really envigorates your body. If we are lucky, we'll get a little snow in the next couple of weeks.

What a great time of the year!

BTW, all you folks down South who think they have the best weather in the world, do me a favor and keep it down there. I've lived in FL twice and both times were the worst living experiences I have ever had.

I love four seasons and I'm not talking about softball. BTW, shoveling snow is one of the best cardio workout in the world.