LBR Question (lifted from eTeamz)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Re: ASA Rule Changes Approved
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[b]Mike,

It was pulled because the NFHS and NCAA discovered a hole in their rule and ASA did not want to make any changes until that hole can be closed. The problem has nothing to do with the proposed change.

Do you know what the hole is????

And no guys I don't mean an opening in some material object.

glen{/b}

The problem is that no rule specifically addresses at what point a pitcher in the circle returns to being a pitcher after acting as a fielder handling a batted ball.

If the runner is off with the pitch and F1 snags a line drive, R1 becomes aware of the catch, reverses direction and then hesitates trying to find the ball, when to you initiate the LBR?

Once the ASA, NCAA and NFHS find a manner in which to address this, the rule will probably be changed. ASA just didn't want to make a change which could possibly go through another change next year or soon after.

[whiskers_ump]

Thanks Mike.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
The problem is that no rule specifically addresses at what point a pitcher in the circle returns to being a pitcher after acting as a fielder handling a batted ball.

If the runner is off with the pitch and F1 snags a line drive, R1 becomes aware of the catch, reverses direction and then hesitates trying to find the ball, when to you initiate the LBR?

Once the ASA, NCAA and NFHS find a manner in which to address this, the rule will probably be changed. ASA just didn't want to make a change which could possibly go through another change next year or soon after.

The hole, then, is in all three books, not just NFHS and NCAA. Good luck to them, but this seems like jousting windmills. The play by the fielder F1 is over when it is over - i.e. when she is no longer making a play.

Just like the deception play discussed earlier, it is reasonable for the umpire to give the runner time to determine what just happened and locate where the ball is. It needs to be remembered why the LBR is there - and it is not to get a "gotcha" out on a runner who is just doing normal runner things. How can this be addressed in the rules without making things worse? Comments in a POE might help, though.

If some are having trouble with "impede the runner" ... well, imagine the issues if things get too specific here.

[CecilOne]

Doesn't the rule say the pitcher (player listed as F1 on the lineup) has the ball in the circle; with nothing about how it gets there, what the pitcher is doing, etc.?


p.s. There is already too much in the POE.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by CecilOne
Doesn't the rule say the pitcher (player listed as F1 on the lineup) has the ball in the circle; with nothing about how it gets there, what the pitcher is doing, etc.?


p.s. There is already too much in the POE.

ASA POE 33-E,

A pitcher fielding a ball in the circle is just another fielder and runners can leave their base.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Dakota

ASA POE 33-E,

Now, that thar makes a lot sense.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump

Now, that thar makes a lot sense.

Y'all ain't thinking this out.

#1, this is in ASA's POE, not the rule.

#2, this may seem to solve the problem, but now what? The pitcher fields a batted ball and then stands there. When is the pitcher a pitcher again? At what point are the runners required to decide and proceed immediately to a base?

The easiest way to handle this is to just delete the LBR altogether. When the pitcher has the ball in the infield and all obvious play is finished, kill the ball. The ball can only be live when the pitcher is standing in contact with the pitcher's plate. Other existing rules would handle any runner leaving the base during this period.

A runner stealing must begin their advance prior to the pitcher receiving the ball in the infield whether from the catcher or any other player. If the runner is not advancing, the play is assumed dead and the runner returns to their base. IOW, just like SP.

Very simple, yet the traditionalists will go crazy if someone even mentions such a change. The problem is that I believe they have no argument to defend their stance.

[whiskers_ump]

"The easiest way to handle this is to just delete the LBR altogether. When the pitcher has the ball in the infield and all obvious play is finished, kill the ball. The ball can only be live when the pitcher is standing in contact with the pitcher's plate. Other existing rules would handle any runner leaving the base during this period.

Now that is a solution that we can all live with. Simple and
apparently has no loop holes. I like it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
"The easiest way to handle this is to just delete the LBR altogether. When the pitcher has the ball in the infield and all obvious play is finished, kill the ball. The ball can only be live when the pitcher is standing in contact with the pitcher's plate. Other existing rules would handle any runner leaving the base during this period.

Now that is a solution that we can all live with. Simple and
apparently has no loop holes. I like it.

Maybe I'll propose it as a rule change next year

[whiskers_ump]

Since you do seem to have some clout, I hope you do...
Push it hard...

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
The easiest way to handle this is to just delete the LBR altogether. When the pitcher has the ball in the infield and all obvious play is finished, kill the ball. The ball can only be live when the pitcher is standing in contact with the pitcher's plate. Other existing rules would handle any runner leaving the base during this period.

A runner stealing must begin their advance prior to the pitcher receiving the ball in the infield whether from the catcher or any other player. If the runner is not advancing, the play is assumed dead and the runner returns to their base. IOW, just like SP.

Very simple, yet the traditionalists will go crazy if someone even mentions such a change. The problem is that I believe they have no argument to defend their stance.

I don't like this. I don't like it at all. No sir, not at all. It just ain't softball. It ain't right. Next thing you know they'll be using a clock instead of just playing 7 innings. And they'll do away with extra innings for ties and probably add something stupid like putting a runner on base just to try to make somebody score. No sir, I don't like it at all.

[WestMichBlue]

Mike: “It was pulled because the NFHS and NCAA discovered a hole in their rule and ASA did not want to make any changes until that hole can be closed. The problem has nothing to do with the proposed change.”

I disagree. The “hole” is created by ASA wanting to change the LBR to have multiple starting points.

Mike: “The problem is that no rule specifically addresses at what point a pitcher in the circle returns to being a pitcher after acting as a fielder handling a batted ball.”

Yes there is. The LBR rule goes into effect WHEN the B-R reaches 1B under the single starting point current rule. Then the “fielder” becomes a pitcher.

Mike: “If the runner is off with the pitch and F1 snags a line drive, R1 becomes aware of the catch, reverses direction and then hesitates trying to find the ball, when to you initiate the LBR?”

Never! The play is not over. We have a runner in violation of a rule (which the umpire cannot call until appealed). The runner can stand there all she wants – jump back and forth – but at some point she better get back to the base before the ball reaches the base and she is out on appeal.

IMO, the single starting point LBR when a batter becomes a B-R is an excellent rule and is easy to manage for umpires. Who cares what other runners are doing while the B-R is lollygagging to 1B? It is a live ball, and if they get careless they are liable to be put out. If the defense makes a mistake, too bad; we don’t need a new rule to prevent that.

Mike: “A runner stealing must begin their advance prior to the pitcher receiving the ball in the infield whether from the catcher or any other player. If the runner is not advancing, the play is assumed dead and the runner returns to their base. IOW, just like SP.”

IOW, just like SP? Why should we change our rules to look like SP? The game of softball is Fast Pitch! SP is a derivation; a stepchild of FP. We (FP enthusiasts) don’t need your (SP aficionados) rules.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Mike: “It was pulled because the NFHS and NCAA discovered a hole in their rule and ASA did not want to make any changes until that hole can be closed. The problem has nothing to do with the proposed change.”

I disagree. The “hole” is created by ASA wanting to change the LBR to have multiple starting points.

If that is your true belief, you didn't know the rule before last year. Until last year, that is exactly how the rule went into effect. BTW, from what I understand, it was NCAA and NFHS which approached ASA and informed them of their dilemma.

Mike: “The problem is that no rule specifically addresses at what point a pitcher in the circle returns to being a pitcher after acting as a fielder handling a batted ball.”

Yes there is. The LBR rule goes into effect WHEN the B-R reaches 1B under the single starting point current rule. Then the “fielder” becomes a pitcher.

So a pitcher who fields a slow roller in the circle is immediately a pitcher and not a fielder if BR reaches 1B regardless of the actions of any other runners.

So, you are not contending that ASA, NCAA and NFHS are all wrong and you are correct? Interesting.

Mike: “If the runner is off with the pitch and F1 snags a line drive, R1 becomes aware of the catch, reverses direction and then hesitates trying to find the ball, when to you initiate the LBR?”

Never! The play is not over. We have a runner in violation of a rule (which the umpire cannot call until appealed). The runner can stand there all she wants – jump back and forth – but at some point she better get back to the base before the ball reaches the base and she is out on appeal.

IMO, the single starting point LBR when a batter becomes a B-R is an excellent rule and is easy to manage for umpires. Who cares what other runners are doing while the B-R is lollygagging to 1B? It is a live ball, and if they get careless they are liable to be put out. If the defense makes a mistake, too bad; we don’t need a new rule to prevent that.

Apparently quite a few people care or the issue would never come to the table. I certainly hope you don't believe that there is a group of people in an ivory tower in OKC that make up these rules. These rules comes from committees staffed by commissioners, player reps and representatives of affiliated organizations (i.e., NFHS, NCAA, Parks and Rec organizations, etc). The people who work in the ASA office don't even have a vote.

Mike: “A runner stealing must begin their advance prior to the pitcher receiving the ball in the infield whether from the catcher or any other player. If the runner is not advancing, the play is assumed dead and the runner returns to their base. IOW, just like SP.”

IOW, just like SP? Why should we change our rules to look like SP? The game of softball is Fast Pitch! SP is a derivation; a stepchild of FP. We (FP enthusiasts) don’t need your (SP aficionados) rules.

WMB

Once again, you must be terribly uninformed of the origin of the game and those who carry the load. The origin resembles SP softball more than it ever resembled baseball or FP softball. It may have even been a bit to the MP side. However, SP carries softball organizations. Even the strictest FP aficionado in ASA must even cede this point.

There is no need to keep the ball live between play and pitches.

Tom and Glen, what did I say?

[whiskers_ump]

Uhhhhh..

Mike said:

Very simple, yet the traditionalists will go crazy if someone even mentions such a change. The problem is that I believe they have no argument to defend their stance>.

Please do go forth with the suggestion of a change.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Dakota

I don't like this. I don't like it at all. No sir, not at all. It just ain't softball. It ain't right. Next thing you know they'll be using a clock instead of just playing 7 innings. And they'll do away with extra innings for ties and probably add something stupid like putting a runner on base just to try to make somebody score. No sir, I don't like it at all.

Smile when you say these things....