LBR Question (lifted from eTeamz)

[Dakota]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
Smile when you say these things....

I though about adding a smilie, but I decided it was self-evident!

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
However, SP carries softball organizations. Even the strictest FP aficionado in ASA must even cede this point.

Cede it, yes, but still point out the issues that has for the FP side. Although it really isn't a SP v FP issue as much as it is an adult v youth issue.

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
There is no need to keep the ball live between play and pitches.

Of course there is... it is good for at least a few outs every season!

Seriously, with the LBR in force, the ball may as well be dead.

[WestMichBlue]

Mike: “If that is your true belief, you didn't know the rule before last year. Until last year, that is exactly how the rule went into effect.”

Actually I do know the rule and, unlike you, I know that it has been around for more than a year. That change came into the NFHS book in 2002 and it was probably in the ASA book a year earlier. (NFHS changes their rules earlier than ASA thus there is usually a one year lag between ASA changes and NFHS changes.)

Mike: “So a pitcher who fields a slow roller in the circle is immediately a pitcher and not a fielder if BR reaches 1B regardless of the actions of any other runners.”

That is kind of a dumb statement, but I didn’t say it. The pitcher is the one that is designated so on the lineup card. Simple! All I said was that the LBR comes into effect when the pitcher is holding the ball in the circle and the B-R has reached 1B. If a pitcher fields a ground ball and stands there with it, the LBR will come into effect. Then all runners must go forward or go back. Why is that so hard to understand? If the pitcher attempts to make a play on any runner or B-R, the LBR is OFF. Note that runners come under the LBR as a result of a pitch OR completion of a batter’s time at bat. So if a batter grounds the ball to the pitcher and a runner is legitimately off 2nd base, at some point that runner will be under control of the LBR.

Mike: “So, you are not contending that ASA, NCAA and NFHS are all wrong and you are correct? Interesting.”

No, that is not my contention. But maybe some people have a hard time understanding the LBR.

Mike: “If the runner is off with the pitch and F1 snags a line drive, R1 becomes aware of the catch, reverses direction and then hesitates trying to find the ball, when to you initiate the LBR?”

Never! The play is not over. We have a runner in violation of a rule (which the umpire cannot call until appealed). The runner can stand there all she wants – jump back and forth – but at some point she better get back to the base before the ball reaches the base and she is out on appeal.

You didn’t respond to this. Does that mean you agree that the LBR is not in effect until the play is over?

Mike: “Apparently quite a few people care or the issue would never come to the table. I certainly hope you don't believe that there is a group of people in an ivory tower in OKC that make up these rules.”

Certainly not. But just because some human comes from some acronym organization does not assume that person is smart or right. Are these the same people that changed the LBR a few years ago? Where they dumb then, and smart now (that they want to reverse the original rule)?


Mike: “Once again, you must be terribly uninformed of the origin of the game . . . origin resembles SP softball more than it ever resembled baseball or FP softball.”

Mike, I will yield to your knowledge of current rules and the ASA hierarchy, but you don’t know diddily about the history of your game or your organization.

The game was created from baseball; it was played under baseball rules with 16 exceptions to define “indoor baseball.” Most concerned equipment and field dimensions. (Because it was an indoor game.) Baseball was pitched underhand then, but BB pitchers could throw sidearm and throw curves. Both were outlawed for indoor baseball. (Baseball pitching continue to evolve to the point that by 1900 pitchers were throwing overhand. Because of the restriction keeping the arm near the body, softball never evolved that way.)

Another change eliminated leading off by keeping the runner pinned to the base until the ball was hit. However, because pitchers so dominated the game, rules were changed continuously to restrict the pitcher and to add offense to the game. Thus the runners were allowed to leave the base on the pitch.

The game moved outdoors and became Kitten Ball or Playground Ball or Softball. It was played by men and women, and it was a fast pitch game. All this was 40 some years before ASA was ever created. I have a picture of a pitcher in 1916/17 and he doesn’t look any different than one today. Stride foot way out, glove hand pointing towards home, pitching arm at 3:00 with wrist cocked, executing a legal drag, heel up and toe down. The most famous softball stories of this era are bout Babe Ruth being struck out on three consecutive pitches two years running (‘37/’38). He supposedly told the catcher that he may as well step out in front the plate to catch the pitch because he (Babe) “couldn’t see the ball long enough to hit it.” (Of course this came later, but how many of you remember a female pitcher throwing 40 pitches to Ted Williams – and he hit one!)

During this time there were variations of the game for slow pitching. The rule was just that the pitch had to be at a moderate speed. (Moderate speed was an umpire’s judgment.) When ASA was created in 1933 they acknowledged the existence of “slow pitch” with a few sentences on the back page of their rulebook. And then promptly ignored SP for the next 20 years!

In 1953, for the first time, ASA added rules for slow pitch – and starting crowning national champions in SP. In 1960 – over 70 years after the initial fast pitch game – the number of participants playing SP surpassed those playing fast pitch. Today probably 90% of adults in the game are playing SP. But when you look at the total female participation – from 8 year olds on pitching machines to H.S., travel ball, college, and pro softball, I suspect that the total ratio of SP vs FP is less than 9:1.

Mike: “However, SP carries softball organizations. Even the strictest FP aficionado in ASA must even cede this point.”

Most popular? Certainly! But there are exceptions. The softball organization near me grudgenly allows SP on its fields when there is no FP scheduled. And then it is on the field with no lights nor fences nor scoreboards and a ¼ mile from the concession stand. We do Fast Pitch there!

WMB

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Mike: “However, SP carries softball organizations. Even the strictest FP aficionado in ASA must even cede this point.”

Most popular? Certainly! But there are exceptions. The softball organization near me grudgenly allows SP on its fields when there is no FP scheduled. And then it is on the field with no lights nor fences nor scoreboards and a ¼ mile from the concession stand. We do Fast Pitch there!

When Mike said "carries" I took him to mean financially, and at a level above a local league. Certainly, slow pitch does not financially carry our fast pitch leagues, tournaments, etc., but slow pitch does pay the bills for a large number of local ball parks, which does at least indirectly support the girls' teams.

And slow pitch teams, etc., are a major part of the finances of national organizations such as ASA and U-trip.

Of course, there are fast pitch only organizations (AFA, USFA), but they are smaller, with smaller budgets and smaller influence than ASA.

NFHS does recognize slow pitch, but I have no idea how many schools play slow pitch. Off hand, I can't think of any near me, but I could be wrong.

On the origins of the game, only one thing is clear to me in the small amount of reading I've done on the subject ... no one really knows exactly how the game started or evolved. There are a lot of myths, suppositions, and posturing behind most articles dealing with the origins of baseball and softball, and just enough evidence to support all of them.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Baseball was first played in this country as the game of rounders brought over in the 18th century from England.

If you check out the game of rounders, you will see that the delivery by the "bowler" is in an underhand pendullum-type swing.

Now, does that sound like baseball? No, it is more like softball. Only a hard-headed baseball enthusiast would think otherwise

And, yes, slow pitch is the financial carrier of ASA. The fast pitch numbers are not even close.

And, try as you may, you still haven't offered a valid argument to keep the ball live.

[WestMichBlue]

”When Mike said "carries" I took him to mean financially,”

I understood that, and that is why I noted that today 90% of participants play SP. My argument was on the origin of the game, and my statement is that FP was THE GAME for the first 70+ years. Note that ASA didn’t even recognize SP until 1953.

”NFHS does recognize slow pitch, but I have no idea how many schools play slow pitch. Off hand, I can't think of any near me”

Not here either, but there are some teams playing in the South (KY, GA).

”.. no one really knows exactly how the game started or evolved.”

Not true at all, Tom. Baseball, yes. It’s origins are shrouded in myths and partial facts (including Abner Doubleday). But softball has a very definitive and historically documented starting date – Thanksgiving Day 1887 at the Farragut Boat Club in Chicago. The inventor and leader of the sport for several years was a reporter for the Chicago Board of Trade and he documented everything, including as trivial as the names of individuals that invented or made equipment for his new game. The 100th anniversary of organized softball was held throughout 1987 in Chicago and no one ever came forth to dispute that claim.

Softball’s evolution is well documented, from the indoor baseball game in the 1890's to Kitten Ball in Minneapolis to Playground Ball in NY to Diamond ball in FL to Softball in CO. I have pictures of school children playing the game about 1900 and an early 1900's women’s team. Before basketball took hold, indoor baseball was played by both boys and girls high school teams in Chicago in the 1890’s. By the 1920’s millions of men, women, and children were playing some form of softball and the first national champions were crowned in 1932. In 1933 350,000 people watched the national tournament at the World's Fair in Chicago.

ASA claims to have crowned three champions in 1933 in Chicago – Mens FP, Womens FP, and Mens SP. Fact is that ASA was not incorporated until the fall of 1933. The ASA founders were instrumental in promoting the 1933 tournament, and attempting to get a single set of rules. Nearly every one of the 50 teams arrived with different sets of rules. The finalist from Florida supposedly played 10 games in 10 states under 10 different sets of rules as they barnstormed their way to Chicago.

1934 was ASA’s 1st national championship tournament, held under a single set of unified rules. And guess what – NO SP! Not for 20 more years!

As umpires, we tend to look at ASA as a rules making authority, when in fact they didn’t take over responsibility for the rules for nearly 50 years. Up to about 1980 rules were under the authority of The International Joint Rules Committee On Softball, of which ASA was a signatory. Committee members were from various recreation organizations around the country (YMCA, CYO, NCAA, ASA, Young Men’s Hebrew Assn., and various city rec and playground leaders.) The official Softball Rules Interpreter was passed to various individuals around the country. Basically, ASA was a promoter and tournament organizer in those years. 1980 is the first year I know of that the rule book said “copyright ASA.”

And now you know . . . . the rest of the story! Or at least a little more.

WMB

[Edited by WestMichBlue on Nov 18th, 2004 at 03:52 PM]

[WestMichBlue]

Mike: ”Baseball was first played in this country as the game of rounders brought over in the 18th century from England. If you check out the game of rounders, you will see that the delivery by the "bowler" is in an underhand pendullum-type swing.”

Thank you. You have lent credence to my statement that baseball was pitched underhanded.

Mike: ”Now, does that sound like baseball?”

YES. Baseball existed in this country for 50 years (pre-Civil War) before “indoor baseball” was created. Pitching was underhanded, but pitchers were pitching sidearm and throwing curves, both of which were outlawed by indoor baseball. Baseball continued to evolve from underhand to sidearm to overhand as we know it today. Softball did not evolve that way because of those restrictions written in 1887.

Mike: ” No, it is more like softball. Only a hard-headed baseball enthusiast would think otherwise “

Ahhh, but a softball historian would know that the reason that softball is pitched underhand is because it was copied from baseball. Which pitched underhand at the time of the copy.

Mike: And, yes, slow pitch is the financial carrier of ASA. The fast pitch numbers are not even close.”

I don't disagree, but that is not your original statement when you said “ However, SP carries softball organizations”. I believe that the majority of FP is played outside of ASA. Therefore the total ratio of SP to FP participants IN THIS COUNTRY is smaller than it is within the ASA world.

Mike: ”And, try as you may, you still haven't offered a valid argument to keep the ball live.”

I won’t offer a rational argument, but will suggest an emotional one. FP umpires pride themselves on not calling time; of keeping the ball in play. It is the way we play the game! This difference between FP and SP has been discussed many times on this board and others. More than once I’ve seen a crossover umpire kill play in a FP game and get called out on it. “What are you doing, Blue? This is not slow pitch!

Anyone out there from the FP side want to support this argument?

WMB

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
I won’t offer a rational argument, but will suggest an emotional one. FP umpires pride themselves on not calling time; of keeping the ball in play. It is the way we play the game! This difference between FP and SP has been discussed many times on this board and others. More than once I’ve seen a crossover umpire kill play in a FP game and get called out on it. “What are you doing, Blue? This is not slow pitch!

Anyone out there from the FP side want to support this argument?

WMB

I agree that the argument is mostly emotional; that is, I do stay aware that the ball is live most of the time, and this becomes a bit of a challenge with single man games, and the stop-start of the SP game seems wrong somehow. But this is, as you say, emotional not rational.

This is because given the look-back rule, once the pitcher has the ball in the circle and the runners have stopped on a base, nothing else happens (normally) until there is a pitch, so there is no harm (or very little harm) to the game to just call TIME.

So, WMB, do you see any real harm to the game by killing the ball after play has stopped?

[Dakota]

WMB, on the history of the game subtopic - (this has not been a keen interest of mine, and I can see it IS a keen interest of yours).

So, I have a question.

You make much of the statement that ASA did not mention slow pitch until 195-something...

Question: Was the game prior to this just called softball or was it called fast pitch?

[WestMichBlue]

Tom: "This is because given the look-back rule, once the pitcher has the ball in the circle and the runners have stopped on a base, nothing else happens (normally) until there is a pitch, so there is no harm (or very little harm) to the game to just call TIME."

Under the LBR there is no reason to call time. You can't kill the ball until the runner touches the base, and you have to start play as soon as the pitcher touches the plate - so why bother? What is gained?

"So, WMB, do you see any real harm to the game by killing the ball after play has stopped?"

Not sure what you are talking about, Tom. As we both recognize, there is no value in calling time under the LBR.

However, SP w/stealing does not use the LBR. Instead play is killed when the pitcher receives the ball in the vicinity of the plate IF the runner had stopped when the catcher released the ball. (What, are they afraid of painting a circle on their fields?) Of course, if the runner is still moving you cannot kill the ball. Or if a play is made on the runner the ball stays live. And if the pitcher doesn't catch the ball it stays live.

So - is that what you want for FP? No more LBR, just call time when the pitcher gets the ball (somewhere?) and make the runner go back to the base? And "slam" the FP traditionalists because they don't want to adopt SP rules for their game?

No way for me. SP is based on hitting. Runners can't go anywhere until you hit the ball. So if you haven't hit the ball, nothing is lost by calling time. FP is a game of strategy to advance a runner and somehow, someway score a run. I coached HS softball and we spent hours of practice working on base running, of learning how to take advantage of, and to push defenses. You can't simply sit back on your heels and wait for the next hitter to drive it to the wall. You have to manufacture runs. And a lot of that is done on the basepaths. Don't kill the ball - or you kill the game!

WMB

[WestMichBlue]

"Question: Was the game prior to this just called softball or was it called fast pitch?"

Softball!

In 1953 the International Joint Rules Committee on Softball created two books. One called the Official Rules of Softball, and in the back of the book a new section called Official Slow-Pitch Softball Rules. (By that, you can assume they considered SP a separate game.)

When ASA published their own rules in 1980 they incorporated FP and SP rules into one book which is the way we see it today. And in 2004 its title is "Official Rules of Softball."

Tom: “You make much of the statement that ASA did not mention slow pitch until 195-something... “

This is just a reaction to people who think the history of softball and of ASA is the history of slow pitch softball. That is simply not true, as I have pointed out. Even though forms of SP have been played for 100 years, it was only 50 years ago the ASA climbed on the SP bandwagon by promoting a separate set of SP rules and offering championship play.

When I started playing in 1960 it seemed everyone played FP. It was assumed that the guys that couldn’t hack it were playing SP. Of course that has changed in the last 40 years and a lot of outstanding athletes are playing SP. But SP allows all sorts of athletically inclined (or athletically challenged ) players. When I go out on even the lower levels of men’s FP play I don’t see any slouches anywhere. You better be good or you won’t make it in FP.

WMB

[Edited by WestMichBlue on Nov 18th, 2004 at 07:15 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
"Question: Was the game prior to this just called softball or was it called fast pitch?"

Softball!

Actually, there are some reports which state that FP took on the name "hardball" which is now more often used to describe baseball

When ASA published their own rules in 1980 they incorporated FP and SP rules into one book which is the way we see it today. And in 2004 its title is "Official Rules of Softball."

And I will travel with one of the gentlemen who help put this book together in February to the National UIC Clinic.

When I started playing in 1960 it seemed everyone played FP. It was assumed that the guys that couldn’t hack it were playing SP. Of course that has changed in the last 40 years and a lot of outstanding athletes are playing SP. But SP allows all sorts of athletically inclined (or athletically challenged ) players. When I go out on even the lower levels of men’s FP play I don’t see any slouches anywhere. You better be good or you won’t make it in FP.

You mean where you were it seemed everyone played FP. In my area, the only adult FP I recall in the '60s was a church league (catholic). Most of the rest was SP. Even in Michigan, there are approximately 50% more SP teams registered with ASA than FP (2003 numbers). The only place I see the athletically challenged players are in the specialty leagues (firefighters, church, industrial, etc.) where the player pool is much more restricted. Before anyone goes off on that, I am not saying that these teams do not include athletes, many do and very good ones at that. However, not all houses, churches or companies are big enough to sustain a team without the aid of some of the older, slower players.

And yes, I am referring to ALL levels of ball. Just because someone plays in a rec league, or at the lower level, that doesn't mean they are not athletically inclined.

[WestMichBlue]

”Actually, there are some reports which state that FP took on the name "hardball" which is now more often used to describe baseball”

The specific question was what did ASA call the game prior to adding SP. The answer (Softball) is taken directly from the front cover of the 1952 rulebook. A later book shows that the name of the game is still Softball, but the book now has a second complete set of rules in the back called Slow Pitch Softball.

”And I will travel with one of the gentlemen who help put this book together in February to the National UIC Clinic.”

Enjoy your trip, and ask him to bring along his copy of the 1980 ASA rule book. This is the book, copyright by ASA that consolidates the previous separate books into a single Softball rulebook with FP and SP notations where applicable. But you don’t have to wait till February. I have the book and can provide any answers you want, including e-mailing sections in a pdf file.

Shortly I will be scanning the original (1934) book into a pdf file to protect it. Then it can be shared with anyone via email. It is a fun read. What will amaze you is how little the game has changed. (But, no LBR back then!)

”You mean where you were it seemed everyone played FP. In my area, the only adult FP I recall in the '60s was a church league (catholic).”

Of course, in my area. Michigan has always been a hotbed of FP and that is where I learned and played the game. As you noted, even today Michigan has a high percentage of ASA FP teams (33% vs maybe 10% in the rest of the country). When you throw in the thousands of rec league, high school and college teams, there is a lot of FP being played around here. And a lot of FP umpires are needed in this state to cover all the games.

WMB

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Shortly I will be scanning the original (1934) book into a pdf file to protect it. Then it can be shared with anyone via email. It is a fun read. What will amaze you is how little the game has changed. (But, no LBR back then!)

Ooo... oooo... oooo... I want one!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
”Actually, there are some reports which state that FP took on the name "hardball" which is now more often used to describe baseball”

The specific question was what did ASA call the game prior to adding SP. The answer (Softball) is taken directly from the front cover of the 1952 rulebook. A later book shows that the name of the game is still Softball, but the book now has a second complete set of rules in the back called Slow Pitch Softball.

Actually, Tom didn't mention ASA in that specific question, nor was my response taking ASA into consideration.

”And I will travel with one of the gentlemen who help put this book together in February to the National UIC Clinic.”

Enjoy your trip, and ask him to bring along his copy of the 1980 ASA rule book. This is the book, copyright by ASA that consolidates the previous separate books into a single Softball rulebook with FP and SP notations where applicable.

I think Tom will have more to worry about as he will be one of the main speakers this year. Besides, I've never questioned anything you have stated concerning the development of ASA's rule book and the construction of it.

”You mean where you were it seemed everyone played FP. In my area, the only adult FP I recall in the '60s was a church league (catholic).”

Of course, in my area. Michigan has always been a hotbed of FP and that is where I learned and played the game. As you noted, even today Michigan has a high percentage of ASA FP teams (33% vs maybe 10% in the rest of the country). When you throw in the thousands of rec league, high school and college teams, there is a lot of FP being played around here. And a lot of FP umpires are needed in this state to cover all the games.

I hope there are a lot of adult FP teams because JO registration was less than 12% of all the teams registered in the Michigan.