Wonderful clock management

[FUBLUE]

Viewing a "drop dead" time limit game the "other night" and saw this happen. (Remembering that inning must be completed for runs scored that inning to count unless home team ties or goes ahead).

2-1 game, home team leading. Visitors score two runs in top of inning, and have one out with runner on first. Coach from third base gives signal to "leave early" and to have batter swing at every pitch. (about 5 minutes left at this point). Girl from first leaves before pitcher starts her windup. Two outs now.

Defensive coach calls time, yells to have pitcher switch with other pitcher on team. "Take your warm-ups" is yelled. Somewhere in here a conference is taken. By the time they get done, there's only two-plus minutes on clock. Defense gets the out, theres only 1:40 left on the clock. By time teams switch, we're under a minute, in fact, visitors lolly-gag on defense. Only a few pitches are thrown when time is up.

I mention this because of several reasons:

1). It really was wonderful to see the home team not play his "trump card" of defensive conferences and switching pitchers until AFTER visitors pulled the "leave way early" card (I think runner was about 30 feet from first when pitcher STARTED her motion).

2). Good to see a coach use the rule in his favor AFTER someone else started it.

3). Only an umpire would know how to use the rules to their fullest extent like that.

GOOD JOB BANDIT!!!

[Dakota]

Anyone see any application of ASA rule 5-4-E against either of these teams?

[FUBLUE]

Originally posted by Dakota
Anyone see any application of ASA rule 5-4-E against either of these teams?

No. How would you apply 5-4-E to the teams?

Would it be different if Defensive team would have called time for a conference, thrown a pitch, the called time again?

What about switching pitchers EVERY pitch? Saw that one done this summer...only lasted about two switches, and then coached was warned about making a mockery of the game.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Yes, I could see it happening, but that doesn't mean I support such a ruling.

A smart umpire will keep on the coaches to keep it moving and remind them of an umpire's option of [/b]judging[/b] their actions to be intentional and that a forfeit is not out of the realm. However, they would also be smart enough to commit to making such a ruling.

I've also seen umpires stop the clock. Personally, I prefer the umpire which all of a sudden realizes how dark it has become, or how the condition of the field has deteriorated during the game and call it for safety reasons.

[Dakota]

I was looking for a discussion of what "tactics noticeably designed" means.

Was it noticeable to you and to the other coach that the leaving early and swinging at every pitch were designed to hasten the game? Were those tactics?

Was it noticeable to you and to the other coach that the changing pitchers and conferences were designed to delay the game? Were those tactics?

Therefore, both teams were in factual violation of 5-4-E. The rule does not say the "tactics" must be per se illegal, nor does it exempt tactics that in other circumstances would be legal. It only addresses whether they were noticeably designed to hasten or delay.

What is the intent of ASA for enforcement of this rule?

While the clock management by the home team had a certain amount of "hoist on your own petard" justice to it, both were in technical violation of the letter of the rule.

My question was, would any of you enforced the rule? Why or why not?

(And "friendly game" or "rec game" or "fall league" as this probably was given the drop dead clock - I understand those issues.) I'm really looking for a discussion of how this rule is enforced in games that matter.

PS Mike (with edit): we passed in the ether in the posting - this was written before your reply.

[Edited by Dakota on Nov 4th, 2004 at 12:53 PM]

[FUBLUE]

Dakota--

I was thinking that was where you were going.

I noticed it because I umpire the visiting coach a lot and his is notorious for stalling/hastening the game when he can. For example, when the game was tied, his girls walked out slowly. When he gets a lead as visitors, he hastens them out to the field to "get the inning in." He is "a master of the stall" and "a master of the speedup." He is also pretty good at influencing umpires to get what he wants.

In a time limit game, we must be sure we know it is a tactic for stalling and for speeding up. I do know the PU for this game, and he would have stopped the clock if defense was "wasting time."

Without lights, it may get too dark (Mike) or stay light longer than I thought, depending on the situation.

In this game I mention, Home coach knows the rules backwards and forwards, inside and out. It was wonderful to see him NOT use the rules to his advantage UNTIL Visiting team decided to "speed up the game." He very well could have used it to his advantage earlier, but didn't.

It is a "rec" game...played inside. It's about practicing and working situations. The tactics probably shouldn't have been used at all, but once visitors used it, I'm glad home used it.

[FUBLUE]

1. Having the runner leave when the pitcher is standing on the pitching plate is noticeably designed.

2. Switching pitchers isn't noticeably designed. We know why it is happening, but it isn't designed to stall/hasten the game like leaving early is designed to do.

3. Switching pitchers EVERY PITCH is designed to delay the game.

4. Having batters swing at every pitch (including the ones that roll across the plate and pitch outs) is intended to speed up the game.

SIDE NOTE: Umpired the games last night, and with a 1-0 lead, home team gives up 3 in top of inning. After 1/2 inning his team hustled, other team hustled and he had his girls swinging at everything close to the strike-zone (most were). Girls ended up scoring 3 runs and winning 4-3 in bottom of inning when time expired.
After game, coach asked me if he could have stalled out the inning and still won the game. I told him no, but he could have patiently batted and called his offensive conference, put in pinch runners, etc., ALL LEGAL PARTS OF THE GAME, in order to "make his situation better." He liked that.

[heyblue]

How would you rate this one: (this happened two years ago)
Visiting team up 5-2 going into the bottom of the inning. When the bottom of the inning started (following the third out of the top of the inning) we had 9 minutes left. They took their 1 minute warm up (as I gave the pitcher three pitches because they were slow coming out). Now we're down to about 8 minutes. First batter get to a 2-2 count and pops up. 1 out. Defensive coach makes a substitution, changed his right fielder as a left handed batter was coming up. I alerted both score keepers the change. Second batter gets a single to right field after a about 4 pitches. Defensive coach calls time, inserts new pitcher. She gets her 5 warm up pitches (approx 1 min). Proceeds to walk the batter after the count going full. Defensive coach calls time again. Inserts new pitcher. She gets her 5 warm up pitches (again about another minute). We're now down to about 3 minutes. This girl grounds out after about 5 pitches, to first, runners advance. 2 outs. Pitcher throws two ball in the dirt, coach calls time again. Inserts original pitcher. No warm up given. She throws ball three high. Timer goes off, signals end of game. I announce to both sides time has expired. Pitchers throw three heaters down the middle, strikes her out. Game over.

To me, he used the book to his advantage. All the umpires in the stands were complaining that he was stalling. All was legal by book rule. Did this violate 5-4-E?

[Andy]

Originally posted by heyblue
How would you rate this one: (this happened two years ago)
Visiting team up 5-2 going into the bottom of the inning. When the bottom of the inning started (following the third out of the top of the inning) we had 9 minutes left. They took their 1 minute warm up (as I gave the pitcher three pitches because they were slow coming out). Now we're down to about 8 minutes. First batter get to a 2-2 count and pops up. 1 out. Defensive coach makes a substitution, changed his right fielder as a left handed batter was coming up. I alerted both score keepers the change. Second batter gets a single to right field after a about 4 pitches. Defensive coach calls time, inserts new pitcher. She gets her 5 warm up pitches (approx 1 min). Proceeds to walk the batter after the count going full. Defensive coach calls time again. Inserts new pitcher. She gets her 5 warm up pitches (again about another minute). We're now down to about 3 minutes. This girl grounds out after about 5 pitches, to first, runners advance. 2 outs. Pitcher throws two ball in the dirt, coach calls time again. Inserts original pitcher. No warm up given. She throws ball three high. Timer goes off, signals end of game. I announce to both sides time has expired. Pitchers throw three heaters down the middle, strikes her out. Game over.

To me, he used the book to his advantage. All the umpires in the stands were complaining that he was stalling. All was legal by book rule. Did this violate 5-4-E?

See Tom's (Dakota) answer above. None of these tactics were illegal, but they probably were designed to hasten and/or delay the game.

Ask yourself this: would the coach have used these same moves in the third inning with 45 minutes left on the game timer? Probably not.


The issue with 5-4-E is that the penalty is so severe.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by FUBLUE

Without lights, it may get too dark (Mike) or stay light longer than I thought, depending on the situation.

Even with lights, it is still the umpire's judgment

But I called games with loads of light, but that was in the 3rd inning of what was already a very long game and I knew that we would never get the game in. So the first sign of intentional misses and lackadaisical swings nowhere near and not even looking at the ball, I called the game.

The coaches went nuts until I explained that the only alternative would have been to forfeit the game and in this case where both teams were doing what they could to counter the other instead of playing ball, I would have had no problem in declaring a double-forfeit and let both of them take a loss.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Andy
See Tom's (Dakota) answer above. None of these tactics were illegal, but they probably were designed to hasten and/or delay the game.

Ask yourself this: would the coach have used these same moves in the third inning with 45 minutes left on the game timer? Probably not.


The issue with 5-4-E is that the penalty is so severe.

At the risk of appearing to be "bashing" ASA your last statement is the problem with this rule.

ASA has done a horrible job of dealing with clock management issues in timed games. It puts the umpire between a rock and a hard place, not that that in itself is all that unusual. But it would be nice if ASA could at least put in a POE or a few case plays that would define some legal clock management moves and what would be illegal stalls.

This is mostly an off-season academic dicsussion (for me), since in reality, I have had few problems dealing with it with a warning. The big hammer of the forfeit seems to get things moving along most of thie time.