You Make The Call

[chuck chopper]

I think deception is unsportsmanlike & doesn't add a darn thing to the integrity of the game. We should try to eliminate the chicanery. If the pitcher makes a play on the runner(and we all know ASA does not define what that is)the LBR is off, so I'm saying the pitcher is "participating" in a play & that gets the runner off the hook. I would love to hear this defensive coach ask for an out on the LBR violation.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by chuck chopper
I think deception is unsportsmanlike & doesn't add a darn thing to the integrity of the game.

I strongly disagree with this statement. Deception is integral to the game; it is part of the game; it is at the very core of the game. Without deception, there would be no changeup, no fake bunt, no slap, etc. What would poker be without the bluff? What would football be without the fake punt?

Originally posted by chuck chopper
We should try to eliminate the chicanery.

Based on what rule? USC? No, no, no. The rules specifically make illegal certain acts of deception (e.g. fake tag, retired runner continuing to run to draw a throw, etc.), but beyond what is specifically mentioned in the rules, there is no overriding rule against deception, and we should not be making them up under the cover of USC.

Originally posted by chuck chopper
If the pitcher makes a play on the runner... the LBR is off, so I'm saying the pitcher is "participating" in a play & that gets the runner off the hook.

This is the argument I was starting to make earlier in the thread, but after reading the responses, I don't think even I believe that holds water. The rules DO define making a play; it must be an act by the pitcher and it must cause the runner to react. That's it. It would be a stretch to call "no act" an act, but I do see the argument that the pitcher was a participant in a multiplayer deception.

Originally posted by chuck chopper
I would love to hear this defensive coach ask for an out on the LBR violation.

I would love to hear your explanation of not making the call because you are on a mission to expunge chicanery. If you truly believe this is USC, then you should be ejecting someone rather than just refusing to call the out.

The facts of the play are these:

1. The pitcher had control of the ball in the circle.
2. The runner stepped off the base, stopped, and did not immediately go anywhere.

You're left with a judgment call to make. Was this a play by the pitcher? If not, how long is "immediately"?

Either way is defensible, but as I said, retracting my earlier comment, it would be hard, I think, to call a motionless pitcher facing away from the runner to be "making a play" - even with the rest of her team engaged in theater.

Amen!!!!! Dakota

[chuck chopper]

OK, I'll retract my "blanket" statement. In baseball if a pitcher pretends to have the ball on the mound, its a balk. If infielders pretend to have the ball & cause baserunners to slide, thats a no-no. So in some cases it seems we don't want deception, and in other cases we allow it. Weighing each case on its own, I do not believe the softball guru's would want us umps to call someone out on the LBR because they were deceived. However if a runner ran & was put out on a deception play, then it would be allowed.

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
"locate the ball?" I don't think so! The rule is based on the pitcher having the ball, not the runner "finding it." After stopping, the runner is supposed to "immediately" go back or go forward. I suspect that my "immediately" might be kind of long in this case. If the defensive coach objected, I would remind him that "immediate" is my judgment. (Of course, my judgment might be a little affected by his cheap trick.)

Verbal obstruction? Is there such a thing? Can you verbally impede the progress of a runner? I think that is a stretch. You have both verbal and physical actions by the defensive players, but they are not preventing the runner from reaching a base. Tricking her, maybe, but not hindering her.

If the runner allowed either of those fielders to get to 2B without her moving; and if the pitcher threw to 2B and the runner is tagged out I would have to allow the out.

Now if this team is full of dirty tricks, then when this one was pulled I might have an inadvertent time out to clean the plate. When the D-coach screams, I would apologize (“sorry, I knew the pitcher had the ball, and I didn’t realize the runner was still off the base”) but it’s too late now to correct.

Both the “immediate judgment” and the inadvertent T.O. would be a form of FYC and delivered in such a manner that the coach should get it.

WMB

According to rulings given by the NUS, the runner is allowed the time to locate the ball.
The play described is a decption play the equates to obstruction.
Trust me on this one guys, I had it happen with the majority of the NUS watching and my partner got it right while I was still thinking about it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by chuck chopper
OK, I'll retract my "blanket" statement. In baseball if a pitcher pretends to have the ball on the mound, its a balk.

Who gives a damn about baseball, beside this is another statement that just isn't true. I believe in baseball it is nothing unless the pitcher is on, astride or near the pitcher's plate.

If infielders pretend to have the ball & cause baserunners to slide, thats a no-no. So in some cases it seems we don't want deception, and in other cases we allow it.

It is only a no-no if there is an attempted tag or act which would cause the runner to slide. If F6 feigns leaping for a ball other than in the vicinity of the runner or base and the runner chooses to slide into a base, it is nothing. This is a safety issue and has NOTHING to do with a runner being deceived.

Weighing each case on its own, I do not believe the softball guru's would want us umps to call someone out on the LBR because they were deceived. However if a runner ran & was put out on a deception play, then it would be allowed.

Think you can be a bit more contradictory? So, a change-up should be illegal? An infielder which lets a pop-up drop shouldn't be allowed to make a play on a runner? A fielder should be allowed to just stand near a base feigning no action when the ball is actually in the air on the way to that player should be disallowed? A runner should be called safe when the cut-off doesn't cut the ball even though someone screams "cut"?

These are all acts of deception and are perfectly legal plays.