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Thu Aug 26, 2004, 12:03pm
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I'm just the opposite and there is no way that will ever change. If I have a call, I make the call. Since umpires cannot always be in the best position, you go with what your brain tells you what your eyes saw. I have no problem checking with my partner if the request is based on my partner having a better angle. It happens and I'm going to try to get it correct. Also, I get very little argument and often a "thank you" whether the team get's their way or not. Now, try going to a partner before making a call only to find out he didn't see the play. If this happens, you have no choice, but to call the runner safe because no one can state the runner was put out. And it doesn't make a damn bit of difference if the BR was two strides shy of the base when the throw arrived. You also need to remember that the PUs primary responsibility is NOT always trailing the BR and becomes even less so the closer another runner gets to the plate. If you do it and it works, that's fine, I have no problem with it. However, it should be the exception, not the routine. You also have to remember that not everyone works with the same partners every day. This year, I believe I only worked with the same partner on multiple nights twice and that can make a difference.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball. 
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Thu Aug 26, 2004, 06:12pm
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I SEE WHERE YOURE COMING FROM, BUT IF IM WORKING WITH SOMEONE THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING, I KNOW THEY WILL BE WHERE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO. I NEVER ASK IF THE UMPIRE HAS OTHER RESPONSIBILITES, SO THAT NEVER BECOMES AN ISSUE. IVE JUST ALWAYS BEEN TAUGHT, (AND TAUGHT) TO NOT BE AFRAID TO GO TO YOUR PARTNER IN SPECIAL SITUATIONS. BUT WHATEVER WORKS, WORKS...
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Thu Aug 26, 2004, 06:36pm
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Mike said,
"Now, try going to a partner before making a call only to find out he didn't see the play. If this happens, you have no choice, but to call the runner safe because no one can state the runner was put out. And it doesn't make a damn bit of difference if the BR was two strides shy of the base when the throw arrived." This is why it is important on what you ask your partner. If it is a private converation you're welcome to say "I had my head up mu butt on that one" but if you're making it across the field you leave your partner an out in case he didn't see it. "Do you have a pulled foot?" rather than "Did she pull her foot?" "Do you have a tag?" "Rather than did she tag her?" NEVER "Was she safe?" or "What's your call?"
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Thu Aug 26, 2004, 08:13pm
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__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Thu Aug 26, 2004, 08:34pm
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Right? Wrong?
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Rick
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Thu Aug 26, 2004, 09:15pm
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This is where teaching this as a regular mechanic becomes an issue.
Many of the mechanics are pretty generic, and a lot of that is caused by the consideration of how much an umpire can retain in "situational" circumstances. Henry and I had this discussion in Plant City during the ISF seminars. Consideration must be given to keeping the mechanics as standard as possible. As Billy P once said, there should be an advance school for mechanics, but a school for advanced mechanics. Remember, the taught mechanics are for the 42,000+ registered umpires, 95% of which will never get past the state level.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Thu Aug 26, 2004, 10:06pm
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__________________
Rick
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Fri Aug 27, 2004, 12:24am
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Mike was only speaking relative to facts. Just like any other skill, umpiring mechanics must be learned and practiced and learned again and practiced and fine tuned and practiced some more. Exception: Reyo on eteamz  The basic mechanics will cover the common cases and allow a moderately skilled crew to get in position for the vast majority of the calls, while keeping the mechanics simple enough that most can get it right. Misapplied, the "ask before the call" mechanic can leave both partners in a no win situation. If the PU is not in position to make the call, then he can offer no help. Yet the BU has already admitted he couldn't see, so everyone will know his call is a guess. An experienced partnership can have this in their tool kit. Others might be better off making the call and checking if the coach asks.
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Tom
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Fri Aug 27, 2004, 12:37am
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Pulled foot appeal
Point to the PU and get the call right the first time, if possible. No need to "sell out" and run up the line with your head turned!!!
You can "gravitate" toward 3rd (if the situation warrants it), but still keep your eyes on the play at first. They are not going to throw the ball from first to third before you can get in a reasonable position to make the call @ 3rd. I teach our umpires stay with priorities! Nothing more aggravating that a PU telling a FU that, for instance, "I didn't see the play, I was watching the player touch home plate". Who cares about the runner touching home plate? If they were happening simultaneously (play @ 1st and runner touching home plate), the runner at home was OBVIOUSLY safe, and the play at first takes precedence. By not going to partner immediately, you have to make the "out" call and wait to see if they appeal it. What if it was the 3rd out? The first baseman hears "out", and rolls the ball to the mound. Then they ask for appeal, while runners have been running, and possibly leaving the field toward the dugout. Can be messy. If you ask for help first, however, then you always have the out by the fact that the runners and fielders should have never stopped playing until they heard the "out" call (if it were the 3rd out). Too many reasons to "appeal" immediately.
__________________
Mike Martin Field of Dreams UIC (afa)
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Fri Aug 27, 2004, 09:19am
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Re: Pulled foot appeal
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Scott It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to have to paint it.
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Fri Aug 27, 2004, 12:18pm
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Re: Pulled foot appeal
ASA mechanics are made for all games. In Men's SP, it is not uncommon at all levels to see runner taking shortcuts at the bases. An umpire's priority is to do 100% of the job, not just what makes everyone else's life a bit easier. Seeing a runner taking an 8 foot shortcut at 2B or 3B is just as important as a pulled foot three bases away from the scoring of a run. As Tom stated, experience and practice among umpires is what makes coverage good. It's much like a BU coming inside on a ball to the outfield. As umpires develop, they peak over their shoulder as long as they can and still see the BR touch 1B. Experience allows umpires to develop a sense for the game than many players will never attain. You always listen to your State umpires. However, you should also make every effort to attend clinics where other clinicians, particularly members of the NUS, offer presentations. Things change and usually because someone has come up with a better idea. Sometimes they are accepted at all levels, sometimes not. As a rookie softball umpire, I use to hunt down umpires who have returned from Nationals just to see what had been added or changed as an acceptable mechanic as that is often where new mechanics are given a test run. You also have UICs that are not locked down to a single organization and will import mechanics taught in another sanctioning body's game. Unless terribly different, most are nothing, but simple nuances that just may give the umpire a different view and are not a big deal. At other times, there are differing mechanics caused by the way a rule for different bodies are interpreted. Just my opinion. I'll do it the way I was taught until I'm taught differently. BTW, I have used the mechanic you prescribed at a major national a few years ago. It involved a run down between 3B and home. U3 had the inside and I was on the outside. A player lunged at the runner and apparently tagged him on the other side which I could not see. I immediately pointed to my partner with the question "Was there a tag?" I got a blank stare in return. Twice more I asked if there was a tag and eventually got a safe call. No matter what happened after that, I was cooked. BTW, my partner was a highly experienced umpire, he just wasn't ready for the question. Never again will I do that without giving up the call altogether.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Fri Aug 27, 2004, 01:51pm
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Mike,
I agree with you as I know Billy P as I had him for a school and for a UIC at a National. He conducted on the field mechanics for the National crew the day we came in, and we had to be there the night before and go out to the fields early! Then after we'd sweated our butts off, very little time was left to shower, dress in business clothes and get to the umpires and coaches luncheon. Then the opening cerimonies. Whew! Not many folks stayed up late that night in the hospitality suite with their adult beverages! We were too tired! LOL I learned some different techniques from him that I'd never learned in 10 years of regional clinics and several national schools. AZBIGDAWG, remember about the word assume? Lastly, if you deviate, communicate! (somehow, someway)
__________________
Elaine "Lady Blue" Metro Atlanta ASA (retired) Georgia High School NFHS (retired) Mom of former Travel Player National Indicator Fraternity 1995
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Fri Aug 27, 2004, 02:01pm
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What I meant, maam...is that the question reallyu only applies with one runner..with more than one runner the HP umpire will have other duties,and you are on your own.
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Sat Aug 28, 2004, 08:30am
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I do think if you are hanging on the line to help with that pulled foot that a lot of throws will beat you back to 3b and you will be making a tag call a long way from the play.
Even if you are floating towards 3b every step takes you to a different angle on the play at 1b, but every step not taken keeps you farther from 3B. I know one of my weeknesses is that I truly belive on tag plays you need to get there. We all get caught on occasion away from a play. Don't you hate making that close call from too far away. You can help but the BU has to make some kind of call if the runner starts to advance from 2b to 3b you better get your butt moving.
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