OT Editorial - what is a sport?

[Dakota]

All the brouhaha over the all-around gold in men's gymnastics got me thinking about a comment I heard/read about gymnastics (or maybe it was about figure skating - same thing applies).

"That's not a sport. It's an exhibition."

What do gymnastics, figure skating, diving, sync swimming, trampoline, ice dancing, and the Cannes Film Festival all have in common? And how are they different from softball, baseball, ice hockey, alpine skiing, water polo, swimming, soccer, track and field, volleyball, and table tennis?

In the first group, all of the contestants are competing against the judges. The officials (note: they are called "judges" not "referees" or "umpires") decide the contest. In the second group, all of the contestants are competing against the other contestants. The officials are there just to enforce the rules of the game.

In the men's all-around competition, so much is being made of the one objective thing the judge can decide - the degree of difficulty of the routine. Yet, this tiny speck of objectivity is sitting in a sea of subjectivity - but somehow it was the objective error that "decided" the medal. How silly.

The men's all around had 6 apparatuses (apparati??), each worth a maximum of 10 points, for a total of 60. Hamm's final score was 57.823. Yang's final score was 57.774 (he was the bronze medalist).

The 0.1 degree of difficulty error on the one apparatus for Yang did not "decide" this result. He received 2.226 points less than a "perfect" score v. Hamm's 2.117 points less than perfect. All he had to do was not make that little slip up on the horizontal bar that resulted in the score of 9.475 instead of a 9.650 (his score on the floor). THAT is what cost him the medal - but of course what really cost him the medal is the reliance on the judges to "correctly" decide the contest. After all, it is all judges scoring, not anything Yang did to try to vanquish his opponent, Hamm.

Somehow we are to believe that we should not allow the error on degree of difficulty to stand, but that the decision to dock Hamm .863, instead of 1.0 for his disastrous vault, is "legitimate?"

As I said, how silly.

In these events, there is no objective standard whatsoever, much as they pretend otherwise. Yes, there are things the judges are supposed to deduct for, but in all comes down to what the judge's bias is. And, I'm not talking about national bias, but style bias; originality bias; difficulty vs basics bias. They are all different. The exact same routine will be scored differently by this set of judges v that set of judges. Then, add on top of that the pressure from the "we hate them" national bias, and the situation is completely out of control.

It has now degenerated into an avalanche of protests and appeals. Can lawsuits be far behind?

All of the exihibition events at the Olympics, summer and winter, had better figure out how to make this more contestant v contestant sport and less contestant v judge show or they will kill the goose that is laying the golden rings.

[FUBLUE]

I got it:

Full contact gymnastics...while someone is doing a floor exercise, have an opponent try to tackle him.

Combine the shooting sports with swimming...when you're not swimming you get to shoot at your opponents from 1000 yards.

Synchronized ice skating...in the middle of a hockey game.

All good ideas!

[kellerumps]

"That's not a sport. It's an exhibition."

You hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. I believe in last years winter games, the Canadian Ice Skaters received a Gold after the fact, because a "Judge" was biased against them.

Don't get me wrong, but Gymnasts, Synchro Swimmers, and Divers are athletes. Pure and simple. No question, No Arguments.

Don't laugh, but the other day I caught the end of "The Cutting Edge"(a movie about Olympic Ice Skaters). Anyway, in this movie after a skating "contest" and the judges displayed their scores, you hear the announcer saying after some low scores...."You know alot of times, the scores are a reflection of events that happen off the ice.". Even in the movies, they make fun of these "Exhibitions" that are passed off as sports.

[Dutch Alex]

Gymnastics, or other "judge/jury"-sports aren't my kind of sports either. But why questioning whether these are sports? Ballroom-dancing is a sport, there are competitions and rules to determine who wins.
Just as in softball!
A couple a years ago I had a game where a coach said that my call cost him the game: I saw F5 blocking the runner, while the ball was on it's way to the homeplate during a Tie-breaker. My left arm stredged out. Runner was tagged on the plate and I gave her home... end of game.
As umpires we also have to decide Yes/No, Strike/Ball, Safe or Out. Translating the rules and what we see to a call, just like a judge/jury. They also observe and have their rules, combining it to a "call"...
Should we worry about lawsites, while making our calls? Coaches/players questioning our call or integrety are send out. I guess that also should happen in jury-sports. If they don't have ruling about it, make them... Our softball-rules change every 1, 2 or 3 years.

Then go one step further: Is Go a sport, or Chess? Rules and competition... Makes that a sport? Are they athletes? They are sitting all day long...
Is a Formel 1-driver an athlete? He's sitting on his *** also...
And think about darts. One top-player from England drinks gallons of beer during his break in a game. Is it a sport or just a "game"?

It's not me to decide! I just like to watch (ball)sports. I don't like car-racing, gymnastics, Go or chess. But to me it still is Sport!

JMHO and no offence (anybody can have his/her opinion),
Alex

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by Dutch Alex
... darts. One top-player from England drinks gallons of beer during his break in a game.

During breaks? I thought that was a part of the competition. It is where I play.

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by kellerumps
Don't laugh, but the other day I caught the end of "The Cutting Edge"(a movie about Olympic Ice Skaters)...

Don't give me that. You were watching your personal DVD copy of it.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Dutch Alex
Just as in softball!

Hardly.

In softball (and other actual sports) it is so unusual for an officials to even seem to decide the result (remember the Russian defeat of the USA in basketball - when was that - '72?) that it is a big item. But in these exhibitions, the officials always decide the result. The winner is always determined by the judges opinions. Nothing more.

Having rules in a contest that is participated in by athletes does not mean the contest is a sport, especially when those rules amount to "whatever the judge thinks, or ate for breakfast this morning."

[Dutch Alex]

Originally posted by Dakota

Hardly.

In softball (and other actual sports) it is so unusual for an officials to even seem to decide the result (remember the Russian defeat of the USA in basketball - when was that - '72?) that it is a big item."

Why, o why, do coaches and players (M/W) then almost every pitch question your call???

I know this cheap, but since there never are cameras present (in Holland) more and more calls are being questioned... The lower the level, the more complains one get..
I do agree, at (inter)national level players/coaches accept more and ins't it an issue.
I don't agree that jugdes/juries before a game starts already have their winner in mind! Yesterday (or the day before) a (Bulgarian) judge has been removed from Olympic-fencing tournament AND suspended for life after awarding 6 unlawfull points to an Italian player and ignoring 2 fouls of him. This is an example of how one judge has to be punished when f***ing up...
A jury isn't always right. It happens that they blow a call, but not always! Mostly the best player/team wins! We (spectators) doesn't always agree, but whats new?
Standing behind the backstop or even in the outfield one has a better view to a pitch than the umpire...

Alex

[Dakota]

I wasn't talking (mostly)about judges cheating. I was talking (mostly) about the normal state of affairs in these exhibitions.

Figure skaters are penalized for being "too athletic" or for being "too avant guard" or for whatever.

The problem with these exhibitions is that the entire - all - every last little bit - of the "score" is somebody's opinion. If this was not true, why would that have 7 (or how ever many) judges (instead of 1), why would they drop the high and the low if not for the fact that judges are merely expressing their opinion.

A proposal for repairing the disaster in figure staking was to go to 15 judges.

Why don't they just give everyone in the audience an electronc scoring tablet and be done with it.

These athletes (and they are athletes, no question) don't play offense (i.e. try to score points or run the fastest), they don't play defense (i.e. try to stop their opponent from scoring points or passing), they just try to read the tea leaves of what "the judges are looking for" and then try to impress them.

Whether or not you agree that it is not a sport, you must agree that it is seriously broken.

I would also say again that fretting endlessly over the 0.1 point lost to Yang because of an objective error, given the vastly greater content of the subjective opinion and bias contained in the rest of his and Hamm's score, is just plain silly.

And, as can be clarly seen by the reactions of the Russians, they, too, recognize that everything is now open to protest.

[Dutch Alex]

O.K. Tom, now I agree with with you. In my earlier posts I allready stated that I don't like Jury-sports.
I think it's just that our definitions for "sport" differs from each other.
You want a clear winner, simply by scoring points or be the first to finish, etc. For me it's just having a competition and fair ruling... (So chess, darts and ballroom-dancing are also sports...)

Than how about (pro)car-racing, like formel 1? Is this a sport? The team with the most dollars/euro's win; Ferrari. In baseball, softball and/or soccer-leagues you have surprises. A bad team can win, simply by having a bad day of the champ's. (see Real Madrid, last season).

Alex

[kellerumps]

Than how about (pro)car-racing, like formel 1? Is this a sport? The team with the most dollars/euro's win; Ferrari. In baseball, softball and/or soccer-leagues you have surprises. A bad team can win, simply by having a bad day of the champ's. (see Real Madrid, last season).

While I agree that in auto racing having $$$ usually results in wins...However, it does come down to a drivers ability. Could I win in a Ferrari.....Not a chance.

As for bad teams winning......That is the great thing about sports. To quote another bad movie...."On Any Given Sunday, Anyone can win!!!!".

[Dutch Alex]

Originally posted by kellerumps
While I agree that in auto racing having $$$ usually results in wins...However, it does come down to a drivers ability. Could I win in a Ferrari.....Not a chance.

Maybe not you, I certanly not. BUT how is it that Michael Shumacher wins every game, this season and his former Benneton-mate Jos Verstappen ain't driving at all? (btw both are excelent drivers, some say J.V. is better than all the others, except from M.S.) Thats the power of money!
To me this ain't sports anymore...

[WestMichBlue]

Just to challenge your thinking a bit, Dakota - What is Boxing?

Sport? One man (woman) against his opponent. If you knock your opponent out, you win, right? Just like winning a race, or scoring less in golf. But what is the effect of the referee? What if he starts his count late, and has a slow count and the fallen boxer gets up and survives to the bell?

What if the fight is stopped? Now it is strickly a referee's opinion that one boxer is beaten. Another referee may not have stopped the fight at that point.

Finally, what happens when the referee is taken out of the decision making. It goes to the judges, right. Three individuals awarding points based on their opinions.


How about wrestling? Man against man, right. Best man wins. If you get the pin, that is probably so. If not, then you go to the score. Who awards points? How? For what reason? Who can stop the match at any time and re-set the wrestlers? Who can penalize a wrestler? Do we have a sport? Or exhibition?

WMB

[woolnojg]

WMB -
I will answer as to wrestling.
It is one competitor against the other. No teams, no one to blame when things don't work out. Except of course, the officials.
Points (scores) are earned for specific actions, set forth in th rules books. Just as OBR describes what a strike is.
There are rules of play, just like OBR.
Officials can make a difference, just like an ump can squeeze the zone on a pitcher or let it go wide. Or shade the safe/out call on a banger.
Clearly wrestling is a sport. One with a history far longer than baseball. Wrestling has been around, one form or another, for millenia.

[Dakota]

Josh Belzman has written an article for MSNBC.com that pretty much aligns with my postings in this thread, only as a professional writer, he says it better.

Here are some quotes:

Athens proved that for all its grace, gymnastics is a fraud. It is a competition without rules.

... only in a competition as contrived as gymnastics could a triumph like Hamm’s be sullied so quickly. ... This was not Hamm’s fault. It was the inevitable consequence of a sport grounded in arbitrary rules and completely removed from the Olympic ideal. Instead of the best athletes winning, gymnastics sees the luckiest ones win, the ones who can charm the judges the most or reap the biggest benefit from a scoring mistake or competitor’s mishap.

In a demonstration of just how silly this sport is, the judges huddled together and emerged with a new, higher score, in the process showing about as much backbone as an amoeba. Apparently gymnastics’ scoring standards aren’t so rigid after all,...

Another Games. More judging controversy. More whining. More tainted gold in a sport decided not by skill but by the whims of mathematically and ethically challenged judges.

Enough already. This farce that is gymnastics must be banished from the Games.

This is not sport. It’s a circus act.

Sports have rules that govern play. Competitors know the rules. Officials know the rules.

The crowd roared its approval. Dragulescu thought he’d nailed it. The crowd thought he’d nailed it. Commentators on TV thought he nailed it.

A “10” – give the guy a “10” for crying out loud!

And yet there it was: “9.90.” A good score, in fact it was the best score judges would give for any vault. But that mystery tenth of a point? We’ll never know where it went. Maybe a judge pocketed it as a souvenir.

And that’s why gymnastics has no place in the Olympics. We have no idea how this sport is being judged, where the points are going, what criteria is being used to determine a champion. Is it the landing? The bow? The smile? What does it take to win?

The results in Athens prove it: this is a sport where rules are made on the fly.

...judges are simply pulling numbers from a hat.

This is one circus act that has no place in the Olympic Games.

Complete article: In final judgment, eliminate gymnastics from Olympics