Women's A Game Situation

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by argodad
One last request for your thoughts and insight on my original problem...

What do you do if you're on the bases, you think the batter intentionally tried to fool the pitcher, but the PU calls IP and brings home the winning run?

Unfortunately NOTHING!!!!!!!
But, because you can't do anything unless the other umpire asks for help.

The bold part of DTTB's rule citations (7-3-1 effect 2) is the key to this and with different numbers applies to NFHS, ASA, PONY, etc. and probably NCAA.

[SC Ump]

I agree with the others (that know what they're talking about) that it is a no pitch. In the case books of ASA, FED, NSA, etc., you will find almost the exact play, stating that it is a no pitch.

HOWEVER, if I'm on the bases and my partner has called an illegal pitch at the plate, once the runner has crossed the plate, and unless there is discussions or a protest and my partner comes to me for help, then I'm going to leave the field and get ready for the next game. It weren't my call.

NEXT QUESTION SOME ARE THINKING: How can the coach protest a judgement call? Well, it all depends upon how well he "discusses" it with the PU. "Blue, can you tell me why you ruled that an illegal pitch? Oh, you agree that the batter tried to call time and surprised the pitcher, but you think that the batter can't call time only the umpire so thus you think an illegal pitch has to be called?" If an umpired agreed with the coach on that statement, then the coach would have a misapplication of the rules as opposed to a judgement call, and thus could protest.

[TexBlue]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

A ball???!!! Why would you call a ball? A ball is in the batter's favor? If a pitch is to be called, it should be a strike that is to the batter's detriment. A warning for unsportsmanlike play is also warranted.

Yeah, yeah, my brain was going faster than my fingers could. I meant a strike, not a ball.

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by SC Ump
NEXT QUESTION SOME ARE THINKING: How can the coach protest a judgement call? Well, it all depends upon how well he "discusses" it with the PU. "Blue, can you tell me why you ruled that an illegal pitch? Oh, you agree that the batter tried to call time and surprised the pitcher, but you think that the batter can't call time only the umpire so thus you think an illegal pitch has to be called?" If an umpired agreed with the coach on that statement, then the coach would have a misapplication of the rules as opposed to a judgement call, and thus could protest.

You are gonna get blackballed by the magician's union for giving away tricks and trade secrets!

Seriously, I've had several coaches try something similar recently: "So, Blue, you're saying ..." followed by a gross misstatement of what I said or the basis for my ruling. I had thought that these guys were just trying me on, but maybe they are teaching something like this in "coach school" these days.

All by way of: be real careful how you respond to a coach who does this~ s/he may be crazy like a fox and planning to set up a protest, based on your "misapplication" of a rule S/HE "supplied" !!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by azbigdawg
hmmm.. I feel like the lone ranger..

Then call me Tonto, 'cause I'm in your corner.

Speaking ASA

By the rule book, you are correct, the umpire must believe it was done with intent, then it should be a "no pitch" with a warning to the offending pitcher and, I guarantee, her coach.

BTW, 6.9 refers to Warm Up pitches and I don't think that is the discussion at hand.

6.10.E states "No player, manager or coach shall call time, employ any other word or phrase or commit any act while the ball is alive and in play for the obvious purpose of trying to make the pitcher commit an illegal pitch."

It isn't going to take a meteor to hit me in the head to understand that if it is obvious, it must be intentional.

Case Play 6F.10-2

The pitcher is in his windup when B1, in an attempt to have the pitcher commit an illegal pitch, raises his hand as if to request "time" and the pitcher stops his windup.

RULING: No pitch shall be declared. (6F-10E)

Once again, a reference showing intent.

Now, onto page 222 under the heading Time out - Suspension of Play it reads "If the batter has both feet in the batter's box in order to step out, the batter must request time and the umpire is to grant TIME OUT. If the pitcher has started the pitch, then TIME OUT should not be granted and the pitch called a strike or ball depending on its location".

So, by the book, Darrell is 100% correct in stating that for a "no pitch" call it needs to be deemed intentional.

That being said, I think there are a few things that need to be taken into consideration. Number one is that this was an adult FP game. It is very likely that this pitcher has been throwing for over a decade and if she doesn't know by know to finish off any pitch she started, shame on her. OTOH, we are talking about players and well,...oh, never mind, I forgot we had some coaches on here. BTW, why I have your attention, how about turning away from the screen while I give away a secret?

Just grant TIME OUT (you have the authority to do that) and have a talk with the offensive coach anyway and remind them that you would just hate to have to eject a player for doing something so bush. If s/he is a smart *** and reminds you that you must give him a warning, just tell'em, "consider yourself warned."

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Then call me Tonto, 'cause I'm in your corner.

Mike,

You are saying that if the batter steps out of the box... not with intent to cause an illegal pitch but just to reset... and if the pitcher stops her pitch in mid motion, that your understanding of ASA rules and teachings are that it should be an illegal pitch called?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by SC Ump

Mike,

You are saying that if the batter steps out of the box... not with intent to cause an illegal pitch but just to reset... and if the pitcher stops her pitch in mid motion, that your understanding of ASA rules and teachings are that it should be an illegal pitch called?

No, it is not "my understanding, but what the rule book clearly notes. I thought I provided enough references to make the point of what the rule book states and then stated how I would possibly handle the situation.

[SC Ump]

Sorry about misunderstanding you Mike. With your references, I understood and agreed with you about what to do when the batter intentionally tried to get the pitcher throw an illegal pitch as well as when the batter unintentionally stepped out but the pitcher continued the pitch. It was just this situation of an unintentional act by the batter and a pitcher stopping in mid-pitch that I was unclear about. Thanks for the follow-up.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by SC Ump
Sorry about misunderstanding you Mike. With your references, I understood and agreed with you about what to do when the batter intentionally tried to get the pitcher throw an illegal pitch as well as when the batter unintentionally stepped out but the pitcher continued the pitch. It was just this situation of an unintentional act by the batter and a pitcher stopping in mid-pitch that I was unclear about. Thanks for the follow-up.

Dan,

Anytime I see a batter having some type of problem (something in their eye, bothered by a bug/bee, dirt kicking up from a breeze, etc.), I will automatically call TIME.

Like I said, the book states one thing, but a good way to handle the situation may be with a little bit of preventive umpiring so when the offense does try to pull a fast one, you're on top of it.

JMHO,

[bluejay]

I will add just one thing to this discussion. I sure hope the plate umpire who called that IP could run FAST and also had a FAST car and a full tank of gas.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

A ball???!!! Why would you call a ball? A ball is in the batter's favor? If a pitch is to be called, it should be a strike that is to the batter's detriment. A warning for unsportsmanlike play is also warranted.

Here are the FED rules (that are not pertinent to this thread, but I would bet ASA has similar rules):

Rule 6-2-4e
No pitch shall be declared when: e. a player, manager or coach calls "Time" or employs any other word or phrase or commits any act, while the ball is live and in play, for the obvious purpose of trying to make the picher commit an illegal pitch.
PENALTY: ... In (e), if the batter tries to cause the pitcher to commit an illegal pitch after the pitchaer has starter her delivery, the ball remains live if the pitcher legally delivers the pitch (see 7-3-1 Effect 2). Also for infraction of (e), see 3-6-8.

Rule 7-3-1
PENALTY: If a pitcher is commited to delivering the pitch, the batter leaves the box at the risk of having a strike called while being out of position.
EFFECT 2: If the pitcher stops or hesitates in her delivery as a result of the batter stepping out of the box or holding up her hand to request time it shall not be an illegal pitch. However, if ... the pitcher legally delivers the ball, it shall be called a strike and the ball remains live. If a pitch is not delivered, a rule has been violated by both the batter and the pitcher. The umpire shall call time, declare "no-pitch" and begin play anew. If the umpire judges the batter's action to be a deliberate attempt to create an illegal pitch, the umpire will penalize according to 3-6-8.

Rule 3-6-8
A coach, player, substitue or other bench personnel shall not: call "time" or use any command or commit any act for the purpose of causing an illegal pitch. The umpire shall issue a team warning to the coach of the team involved and the next offender on that team shall be restricted to the dugout for the remainder of that game.

Despite my current unfamiliarity with ASA rules (haven't worked any for a few years, but did about 20 years prior to getting that part of my summer back), I'm betting that McCrowder is correct and that the umpire who made this call is chewing on his underwear now... probably never to be invited back to a national tournament. Scerwed the pooch on this one.

DEAD BALL, NO PITCH, RUNNER STAYS ON 3rd.

I am in agreement with Tony. According to the 2004 ASA Official Rules Book. RULE 6, SECTION 10-E

No player, manager or coach shall call time, employ any other word or phrase, or commit any act while the ball is and in play for the obvious of trying to make the pitcher commit an illegal pitch. A warning shall be given to the offending team and a repeat of this act by any member of the team shall result in the offender being ejected from the game.

EFFECT-Ball is dead, and all subsequent action on that pitch is canceled.

Michael