What's wrong with the two-umpire system?

[FUBLUE]

I worked a national recently and we worked 2-person all the way through the tournament. I saw many situations where two person mechanics fail to get the best coverage. I was wondering what you all have found to be faults of the two-person system and if you have suggestions to correct the coverage.

Here's one: R1 on 2B, line shot to F9 with possible throw to F3. BU is watching the play at first, PU is watching the hit ball. Who's watching R1 touch/miss 3B? (A coach in this area teaches his kids in this situation to miss the base by about 3 feet on this situation because he knows no one is looking at the runner).

[Bandit]

Nature of the beast. Install the old rule of calling runners out if you see them miss a base w/o appeal. Some coaches will always be around...like the ones who teach their runners to leave early on the pitch until it's called. Longer and better pregame meeting between partners. I think we all get a little lazy on this with work schedules and ball umpiring schedules are becoming so close together. It's something that we all assume the partner will know and that is not always the case. Then again I've done ball games all the way up to the National level when umpires don't know the mechanics of the 3 person system either. Have to wonder what their state associations are really teaching them.

[Dakota]

Look for some of the recent threads started by WMB; he has posted some pretty good scenarios that are a challenge to 2-man mechanics.

My most common difficult coverage is with runners at the corners with an infield grounder. The play can legitimately go three places (1B, 2B or home); meanwhile as BU you're kinda hung out there behind F6.

[Edited by Dakota on Aug 11th, 2004 at 12:23 PM]

[FUBLUE]

Originally posted by Dakota
Look for some of the recent threads started by WMB; he has posted so pretty good scenarios that are a challenge to 2-man mechanics.

My most common difficult coverage is with runners at the corners with an infield grounder. The play can legitimately go three places (1B, 2B or home); meanwhile as BU your kinda hung out there behind F6.

And then because of indecisive fielders you have to make a call at first base from 75 feet away, and it's close, and coach doesn't like it, right?

[Dutch Alex]

Originally posted by Dakota
My most common difficult coverage is with runners at the corners with an infield grounder. The play can legitimately go three places (1B, 2B or home); meanwhile as BU your kinda hung out there behind F6.

Don't forget in this situation that one also has to see if a runner leaves (too) early...

Had a coach complainig to me a couple of weeks ago, after I called his runner from 1st base out. He said that I had to watch 3rth base stealing to early. So I couldn't see it right. IMHO I'm watching 1st base. Most chance she leaving to early. Are you (trying to) watch(ing) both runners...

So I have to agree, it's not a nice situation... but 2 man-system is having more fun than 3 man-system! Altough you have a worse couvering...

Alex

[Dakota]

Originally posted by FUBLUE

And then because of indecisive fielders you have to make a call at first base from 75 feet away, and it's close, and coach doesn't like it, right?

Right. Your partner can't help out much at first since he has a possible play to cover at home; you can't go across the infield or you risk being right in the middle of a play at 2nd...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by FUBLUE
I worked a national recently and we worked 2-person all the way through the tournament. I saw many situations where two person mechanics fail to get the best coverage. I was wondering what you all have found to be faults of the two-person system and if you have suggestions to correct the coverage.

Here's one: R1 on 2B, line shot to F9 with possible throw to F3. BU is watching the play at first, PU is watching the hit ball. Who's watching R1 touch/miss 3B? (A coach in this area teaches his kids in this situation to miss the base by about 3 feet on this situation because he knows no one is looking at the runner).

It better be the PU, because that is his responsibility.

[TexBlue]

Like DutchAlex said, it's more fun with the 2 man thn the 3. You get better coverage with the 3 man. You have to bust your tail a lot more with the 2 man, but if you have 2 partners who really do bust it, there is hardly ever a case where a play isn't covered correctly. Of course, to prove the other side of this argument, refer back to May, when my partner and I both were moving on the ball and both were unable to come up with a call. We did everything right, believe me, I've gone over this one a 1000 times since and there is nothing I would have either one of us do differently. A 3 man crew would have had a 3rd view and maybe a better view. Anyway, I prefer the 2 man crew, as it provides more action for the blue.

I saw a thread where the R1 was on 2nd and the play was at 1st. I've always let the runner go by, watched the ball, to see where the play is going and followed the ball at a dead run, until the ball is almost to the base. Then I stop and make the call. Even if the ball is thrown to 1st, I can cut the distance by half. Most of the time, I'm behind the pitchig rubber by this time and have a good angle on the play and the runner.

[FUBLUE]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

It better be the PU, because that is his responsibility.

Should be, but not always going to look...especially if everything is happening quickly...

I'll admit it...I used to teach it...blues never watched for it...got away with it several times...never was caught.

Why? Hit and run, down right field line, PU has to look for fair/foul, BU has to watch for a play.

No one there to look for touch of third...a lot thought she missed it, but no one was ever sure she missed it!

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally posted by FUBLUE
I worked a national recently and we worked 2-person all the way through the tournament. I saw many situations where two person mechanics fail to get the best coverage. I was wondering what you all have found to be faults of the two-person system and if you have suggestions to correct the coverage.

Here's one: R1 on 2B, line shot to F9 with possible throw to F3. BU is watching the play at first, PU is watching the hit ball. Who's watching R1 touch/miss 3B? (A coach in this area teaches his kids in this situation to miss the base by about 3 feet on this situation because he knows no one is looking at the runner).

FUBLUE,

If the line shot is near the line then PU's first responsibility has to be fair/foul and then catch or no catch. If the shot becomes playable then the BU should pick up the BR and the PU should be moving a few steps towrds third and picking up R1.

You post states a "possible" throw to first and that the BU is watching the play at first. In your description, there is no play at first base as a play requires there to a runner and the ball.

Michael

[FUBLUE]

Originally posted by MichaelVA2000

FUBLUE,

If the line shot is near the line then PU's first responsibility has to be fair/foul and then catch or no catch. If the shot becomes playable then the BU should pick up the BR and the PU should be moving a few steps towrds third and picking up R1.

You post states a "possible" throw to first and that the BU is watching the play at first. In your description, there is no play at first base as a play requires there to a runner and the ball.

Michael

I'm thinking you don't get what I'm thinking I'm saying that there is going to be a play at first if F9 fields it cleanly...the ball is on the line. This isn't a once in a lifetime play...it's quite frequent, especially with a good team. Who is watching runner touch 3B? PU has to look fair/foul, catch/no catch, pulled foot. BU has to look for out/safe. Who is going to abandon a responsibility in favor of ANOTHER responsibility to watch runner touch/not touch 3B?

What I want here is ways to make 2-umpire system a better system, yet still have it be "fun."

2-umpire system works extremely well when done right...but it can be better...how do we deviate to make two-person better?

[SC Ump]

Very good discussion. I love three man. I think it is better coverage as well as more fun to do... when it's done right. I find that in the play-offs and those once or twice a year ocassions when we do it in this area, it is often with people that are not sure where to be at what time. Or even after an extensive pregame, you have as the 1B ump, rotate home only to have your partner there forgetting to rotate to third.

I once worked with a organization that had the policy of any umpire wanting to be selected for a post season game was required to volunteer for one 3-man during the year. Statistically, you would work three 3-man games during the year, two of which you were being paid and someone else was volunteering on your crew. Realistically, the good umpires had more than three 3-man games, because the newbies aways wanted to volunteer with the experienced crews.

Just a thought about how 3-man umpiring, if only done infrequently, might be worse than just sticking with the 2-man system, and what the umpires are experienced with.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally posted by FUBLUE

I'm thinking you don't get what I'm thinking I'm saying that there is going to be a play at first if F9 fields it cleanly...the ball is on the line. This isn't a once in a lifetime play...it's quite frequent, especially with a good team. Who is watching runner touch 3B? PU has to look fair/foul, catch/no catch, pulled foot. BU has to look for out/safe. Who is going to abandon a responsibility in favor of ANOTHER responsibility to watch runner touch/not touch 3B?

What I want here is ways to make 2-umpire system a better system, yet still have it be "fun."

2-umpire system works extremely well when done right...but it can be better...how do we deviate to make two-person better?

FUBLUE,

Better picture now that you added there would be a play at first base. As soon as the PU signals fair and sees there will be a play at first base, PU needs to start moving towards third base focusing on R1. Communicating to your partner that you have third if she comes will also help. With the play at first, R1 becomes the PU's responsibility.

Michael