Batter ejected

[WestMichBlue]

ASA Rules.

If you eject a batter (USC) before they have completed their turn at bat,

1. Are they called out?

2. If not, does the next batter come up with a zero/zero count? Or does a substitute step in with the same count as the ejected batter?

Rule ref?

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
ASA Rules.

If you eject a batter (USC) before they have completed their turn at bat,

1. Are they called out?

Yes.

2004 ASA CB Play 10.8-1 and associated references.

Any further discussion would need to be addressed to Henry Pollard

[Dakota]

Mike,

Wouldn't that depend on the nature of the USC?

The case play refers to "flagrant misconduct" and the situation is throwing a bat in anger.

I wouldn't have thought that would cover all kinds of USC. For example, ejecting a batter for making disparaging remarks to the umpire. Or for continued arguing balls and strikes.

Did Henry intend to mean that "whatever is sufficient misconduct to warrant an ejection" is by definition "flagrant"?

If so, then in addition to better rule support, I'd like to see the case play edited to say "unsportsmanlike conduct" instead of "flagrant misconduct."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
Mike,

Wouldn't that depend on the nature of the USC?

The case play refers to "flagrant misconduct" and the situation is throwing a bat in anger.

I wouldn't have thought that would cover all kinds of USC. For example, ejecting a batter for making disparaging remarks to the umpire. Or for continued arguing balls and strikes.

Did Henry intend to mean that "whatever is sufficient misconduct to warrant an ejection" is by definition "flagrant"?

If so, then in addition to better rule support, I'd like to see the case play edited to say "unsportsmanlike conduct" instead of "flagrant misconduct."

Semantics, but how can you eject a player for unsportsmanlike conduct if the player didn't do something that was flagrant?

[bluezebra]

Substitute batter assumes count on ejected batter.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Semantics, but how can you eject a player for unsportsmanlike conduct if the player didn't do something that was flagrant?

I don't know... maybe I haven't truely embraced this interp, but I have more-or-less convinced myself that the case play was intended to address flagrant and dangerous behavior (even though it clearly did not say "dangerous") such as throwing a bat in anger (the specific case play) or "taking out" an opposing player. I hadn't considered standing at the plate and jawing with the umpire to be in the same category. Guess that just shows how isolated a life JO umpires lead.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota

I don't know... maybe I haven't truely embraced this interp, but I have more-or-less convinced myself that the case play was intended to address flagrant and dangerous behavior (even though it clearly did not say "dangerous") such as throwing a bat in anger (the specific case play) or "taking out" an opposing player. I hadn't considered standing at the plate and jawing with the umpire to be in the same category. Guess that just shows how isolated a life JO umpires lead.

I don't know if this is what was intended, but think about it.

There is a fair amount of "misconduct" on the field and from the dugout. This is usually stuff umpires handle with a quick admonition. However, for an USC ejection, it almost seems there has to be some sort of flagrant misconduct.

As I've noted before, I'm preparing legislation trying to lock this down in the book.

[bluezebra]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

I don't know if this is what was intended, but think about it.

There is a fair amount of "misconduct" on the field and from the dugout. This is usually stuff umpires handle with a quick admonition. However, for an USC ejection, it almost seems there has to be some sort of flagrant misconduct.

As I've noted before, I'm preparing legislation trying to lock this down in the book.

Arguing balls and strikes is not flagrant misconduct, but it is cause for ejection.

[WestMichBlue]

OK, is this flagrant misconduct?

ASA Women's SP. Low level league, generally this is a fun night as we all get along well - and it's easy money. Except for one player-coach that I have had difficulty with in several games.

She has harped about judgment calls, and got on me hard about silly rule interpretations. She tagged a runner one night that had over-ran 1B and turned left before returning to the base. "Call her out Blue - she turned the wrong way! After losing that argument she sent her 6'5" nephew assistant coach out between innings to "teach me some rules!"

On the game in question we had two "discussions about rules interpretation." I was wrong on one, she was out in left field on the other and she left the field with some very negative comments about my rules knowledge.

I kept having to hold up the game to get members of her team to pick up bats left near the on-deck circle. Again I am holding up the game; this time she is the on-deck batter and she refuses to pick up the bat. "Why," she asks. "Is that in the rules?" "Yes, it is my rules; now get the bat off the field." She refused and I called delay of game and a strike on the batter.

Batter ran over to take care of the bat and had a few words with the coach. Needless to say, by time the coach stepped up to bat she was hot. Naturally she takes a called strike. Jumps out of the batters box and starts arguing. I let her go for about 15 seconds, then ordered her back into the batters box. By this time I am listening closely, just looking for a reason to toss her. Out of her mouth comes an obscenity and I had what I wanted. Called time and ejected her.

Flagrant?

WMB

[Robmoz]

Flagarant? What, the ejection or the USC?

It sounds like you missed plenty of opportunities to let her watch from the parking lot but chose to pass on; then you allowed her to continue to the point where you couldn't wait to run her and had to look for something. You let yourself down by not managing your game.

Check out this article in Referee Magazine it is a good read and may be applied to your situation:

http://www.referee.com/more/Samples/...e_4thtime.html

[Edited by Robmoz on Jul 29th, 2004 at 01:36 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
OK, is this flagrant misconduct?

ASA Women's SP. Low level league, generally this is a fun night as we all get along well - and it's easy money. Except for one player-coach that I have had difficulty with in several games.

She has harped about judgment calls, and got on me hard about silly rule interpretations. She tagged a runner one night that had over-ran 1B and turned left before returning to the base. "Call her out Blue - she turned the wrong way! After losing that argument she sent her 6'5" nephew assistant coach out between innings to "teach me some rules!"

On the game in question we had two "discussions about rules interpretation." I was wrong on one, she was out in left field on the other and she left the field with some very negative comments about my rules knowledge.

I kept having to hold up the game to get members of her team to pick up bats left near the on-deck circle. Again I am holding up the game; this time she is the on-deck batter and she refuses to pick up the bat. "Why," she asks. "Is that in the rules?" "Yes, it is my rules; now get the bat off the field." She refused and I called delay of game and a strike on the batter.

Batter ran over to take care of the bat and had a few words with the coach. Needless to say, by time the coach stepped up to bat she was hot. Naturally she takes a called strike. Jumps out of the batters box and starts arguing. I let her go for about 15 seconds, then ordered her back into the batters box. By this time I am listening closely, just looking for a reason to toss her. Out of her mouth comes an obscenity and I had what I wanted. Called time and ejected her.

Flagrant?

WMB

I would say so. It seems you could have ejected this woman for a number of things. Arguing balls and strikes, questioning your calls and interpretations, obviously attempting to intimidate your with the "assistant" coach and plain and simple questioning your integrity.

Why wait for something, you had plenty. And yes, if the coach carried it to the extremes you mention here, it is flagrant. Questioning a call or a ruling is one thing. If it is done in a calm and professional manner, it is not even an event in the game. Whining about a disagreement after the play is over and continuing to be confrontational is far beyond the scope of allowable conduct on the ball field.

JMHO,

[bluezebra]

After losing that argument she sent her 6'5" nephew assistant coach out between innings to "teach me some rules!"

Ma'am, you and Bubba here are no longer participants in this contest. Leave the area. Thank you.

[SactoBlue]

Oh, gawd! Would I have loved to see their face if that woulda actually been said. That's one where you'd want an audience to witness the ejection because of the pure joy it would have brought.