How does pitching skill affect your zone?

[Dakota]

Two "quotes" from an unnamed coach:

Umps many times call a bigger zone for poor, slow pitchers than they do for more experienced, better pitchers in the same game.

And,

A pitcher with good control will get more calls around the edges than one who is wild because there is a psychological benefit from having the ump think you meant to put it there.

Comments? (I'm working on my own comments - will post them in a bit - but I thought I put this out there now...)

[bellnier]

It's an interesting philosophy, based on human nature...but here's my concern...do you change your strike zone in the middle of the game when the better skilled pitcher is replaced by a lesser skilled pitcher?

[WestMichBlue]

"Umps many times call a bigger zone for poor, slow pitchers than they do for more experienced, better pitchers in the same game."

No question this is true for WMB. If she is slow for the norm at that age, then I feel the batters have time to hit the marginal pitches and I am going to call them. If you don't, you will have too many walks and batters will be standing there with the bats on their shoulders.

"A pitcher with good control will get more calls around the edges than one who is wild because there is a psychological benefit from having the ump think you meant to put it there"

No true for me. A corner is a corner, regardless of the pitcher. But the better pitcher better hit the corners, or she won't get the strike. (See above for poorer pitcher) I've been behind the plate three times this year (2 H.S. and one 18U tournament game) for one of the best pitchers in this State. She deliberately throws 2"-4" off the plate. Because of her reputation (and a demanding coach) she gets those calls from a lot of umpires, and will stay there the entire game just destroying batters.

I won't do it. Because she is so good I demand that she hit the corners. Its a battle of wills, and after a few tantrums she moves it over (and I'll yield a bit and give her an inch off the plate) and we have a good game.

WMB

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Dakota
Two "quotes" from an unnamed coach:

And,

Comments? (I'm working on my own comments - will post them in a bit - but I thought I put this out there now...)

Bigger strike zone for poor, slow pitchers.

Personally, I cannot see chaning zones. Not the other teams
fault that this pitcher is having problems. Might have them
swinging at pitches that are out of the zone in their next game,
because we called them as strikes in this game.

A pitcher with good control will get more calls around the edges than one who is wild because there is a psychological benefit from having the ump think you meant to put it there.

The wild one will get what does cross the plate just as the one
who has good control will.

I try not to change. I know it is difficult at times, but I think
even in run-a-way games balls/strikes should be as consistant
as possible. We will all miss some. I can see where we might miss
some of the wilder pitcher, because it would surprise us at times
when they do catch a corner, or a marginal knee high pitch.
JMT's

[greymule]

I just finished seven games in an 18-and-under tournament in which I didn't see more than a dozen walks the entire weekend. My strike zone was smaller than the book zone, especially since calling a "letter-high" strike would have ignited the crowd. Some of those pitchers would get 2 strikes and then throw one 2 inches outside and another 2 inches inside—pitches the batters thumbed their noses at—just to set up their 2-2 pitch.

Even with a zone that tight, several pitchers threw shutouts with zero walks.

No, I do not call the same strike zone in rec, where pitches 2 inches off the plate or under the armpits are definitely strikes.

[SamNVa]

I try to call the same zone for both teams. I will adjust my zone a little bit if both pitchers are struggling, but after that it stays the same for both teams for the remainder of the game. I also adjust my zone according to age, but I don't give one pitcher anything that I'm not giving the other.

SamC

[Dakota]

Notice that the two quotes were talking about different pitchers in the same game. So even allowing for variances in the zone due to age, travel vs rec, etc., this perception by this coach is common.

A poor pitcher will get a bigger zone than a good pitcher, or a pitcher with good control will get a wider zone than a pitcher without good control (never mind that those statements on the surface appear to contradict each other!).

Try as I might to give the "same zone" to both teams, I can understand how coaches come to that conclusion.

Taking the first sentence first.

Umps many times call a bigger zone for poor, slow pitchers than they do for more experienced, better pitchers in the same game.

This is usually applied to rec level games and/or pitchers of considerable difference in skill on the two teams.

With rainbow pitchers, even though I am trying to give the same zone to both teams, the fact is I will be calling "strikes" that the coaches insist are above the eyes or in the dirt. Because I am looking for whether the pitch entered the zone above the plate, whereas the coach is looking at was the pitch at any time out of the zone while in front of the batter. Add to this that it is difficult to get into a "zone" (so to speak) with my zone with such vastly different skill levels of pitchers on the two teams. Of necessity, I have to adjust each half inning to each pitcher's "style."

The second sentence,

A pitcher with good control will get more calls around the edges than one who is wild because there is a psychological benefit from having the ump think you meant to put it there.

This is typically applied to a higher level game, where one pitcher is in command of several pitches (fast ball, change, curve/rise/drop) and the other is struggling to keep her fast ball in the zone.

A pitcher with good control and a variety of pitches will "get" the corner more often simply because she hits it more often. A curve comes in seemingly outside or inside and then curves into the zone, or a curve comes in, catches the corner and gets to the catcher well outside. STRIKE. The struggling fastballer throws a pitch that seems to approach the plate in the same area, but stays outside/inside or hits the catcher the same amount outside, and to the observer from the side, these pitches look the same, but the call is BALL.

In both cases, what I am saying is even though I believe I am giving the same zone to both teams, the coaches will not necessarily agree, because they don't see what I see.

[Skahtboi]

The strike zone is the strike zone.

As Tom has already pointed out, it may appear to the casual, or not so casual, viewer that a pitcher with greater control gets more calls on the corner, simply because the movement of the ball on her pitch will carry it through the strikezone, whereas the pitcher with less control over her pitchers, may, for all intents and purposes, seem to hit the exact same spot judging from where the catcher catches the ball, but in fact her pitch has never actually entered the zone.

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by bellnier
It's an interesting philosophy, based on human nature...but here's my concern...do you change your strike zone in the middle of the game when the better skilled pitcher is replaced by a lesser skilled pitcher?

No. Never. You just usually get a lot more walks!

[Steve M]

quote:
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Umps many times call a bigger zone for poor, slow pitchers than they do for more experienced, better pitchers in the same game.
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Gonna disagree with this one. Fortunately, I've only had a couple of pitchers this year that I'd describe as this "If the plate were her backside, she couldn't find it by reaching both hands behind her." The lousy pitcher is not likely to get any break or special consideration from me. Then again, I don't do much of the rec ball level.

And,
quote:
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A pitcher with good control will get more calls around the edges than one who is wild because there is a psychological benefit from having the ump think you meant to put it there.
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I'll somewhat agree with this one, using this example. Two pitchers throw the same borderline pitch, one sees it called a strike, the other has it called a ball. For the strike, this is by a pitcher who has command of her pitches and threw this one exactly where the catcher called for it. For the ball, the catcher had to lunge to get this one and many other pitches during this game because this pitcher doesn't have any idea where the ball is going other than she is throwing the ball somewhere near the catcher. I am not likely to reward a mistake.

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue

I won't do it. Because she is so good I demand that she hit the corners. Its a battle of wills, and after a few tantrums she moves it over (and I'll yield a bit and give her an inch off the plate) and we have a good game.

WMB

Tantrum? Tantrum? Surely, you mean in the dugout, right? A pitcher of that caliber should know better than to throw a tantrum on the field. I wouldn't let a catcher try to show up either me or my partner. Same for a pitcher. I might even suggest to the catcher to go talk to her. If that doesn't work, she'll get one more chance, when I talk to the coach. After that, she's on her own.

Play the game, don't whine about YOUR game.

[mcrowder]

With 13U or higher, I try to call the book zone as closely as possible.

Below that, if BOTH pitchers are struggling, I might widen the strike zone a bit to avoid the walkathon and get the batters to swing some. If one pitcher is good and the other not, however, the bad pitcher is just going to have to live with the "normal" zone that I'm giving the good pitcher.

And no, I try hard not to change zones when the bad pitcher comes in. One exception: Last game of the season, 8-1 team vs 0-9 team. 4th inning, score is something like 15-0, and the bad team's only respectable pitcher gets hurt. Bad team is ready to forfeit, so I get the coaches together - the agree to let someone who had never pitched before come in, with the good team telling me that anything that is reachable, AT ALL, is a strike against them. To make the point, on the very first pitch, hat high and 6 inches outside... "STRIKE!" Girls swung the bats after that, and still managed to score 5 or 6 more with the benefit of only 1 walk (and I felt bad issuing that!).

But that example was really a "real" game that turned "rec" in a hurry.