Legal CR?

[whiskers_ump]

Still Raining here in this part of Texas [6 straight days], so I
thought I will bring another post over from another board. Tom and I
have already answered, as did Tom's buddy. Really simple, but would
like to hear from members of this board.

ASA Rules. Line-up cards have been exchanged at home plate, PU has approved them. Home team manager has a player that is late to the game and he has to go back up to the PU and make a substitution for the late player. In the bottom of the 1st, the catcher reaches base. The player who was late to the game and had to be substituted for, has now arrived. She is used as a courtesy runner for the catcher. Is this legal?

Looking at my rule book (circa 2003)Rule 8-10 c says "any player currently in the game or that has participated in the game in any other playing capacity is ineligible to be a courtesy runner". POE 12 says that a player who has not been in the game may be used as a courtesy runner.

Should the late arriving player be deemed to have "participated in the game" due to being in the original line up, even though she had not stepped foot on the field? The PU consulted with the UIC and the player was allowed to be the courtesy runner.

Is there something in the Rule book or Case Book that specifically addresses this issue?

[TexBlue]

Once the lineups have been exchanged and approved, they are official. Rule 3-1-A-1. Any changes made after this are a substitution.

Now, if it's a laid back game, like a rec game, the rules may be bent. If it's a tournament, I'm going with the rule book.

Hey, Glen, keep your dadgummed rain down there! This stuff we're getting today is coming from your area. I was calling a PONY Sectionals today, lost it. I was gonna call a High School All-Star tournament for the Texas Sports Festival on Sunday. Your rain messed that up too. Quit it, and keep the wet stuff yourself.

[Steve M]

Glen,
That player has participated, and was removed when the sub went in - check the lineup card. That player can't be a CR in that game.

[whiskers_ump]

I totally agree. The only way she could come into the game
is to use her re-entry for her sub. She is definiately not
eligible to enter anywhere else. It appears the starting
lineup was inspected and approved and then changed by the
coach. She was at this point officially in the game.

[CecilOne]

Right, especially if the umpire did it right and asked if it was the lineup for sure.

Reminds me of another question. The codes I know of say that a ground rule can not violate a book rule. Does that also mean that a tournament rule can not violate a book rule, specifically ASA and PONY youth qualifier tourneys? For example, can the TD say it is okay for a player who has been substituted for to be a CR or for any player to be CR because the team has only 9 players?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by CecilOne
Reminds me of another question. The codes I know of say that a ground rule can not violate a book rule. Does that also mean that a tournament rule can not violate a book rule, specifically ASA and PONY youth qualifier tourneys? For example, can the TD say it is okay for a player who has been substituted for to be a CR or for any player to be CR because the team has only 9 players?

Local associations, leagues, and tournaments may adopt whatever local rules as they see fit. ASA Rule 12.

"Ground rules" should be addressing aspects of the playing field, not just general "sand lot" rule modifications. ASA Rule 2-2.

[CecilOne]

Yes, I knew those points.

By tournament rules, I referred to "qualifier tourneys",
those which lead to regional or zone and therefore might need to follow rules for championship play.

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by CecilOne

Reminds me of another question. The codes I know of say that a ground rule can not violate a book rule. Does that also mean that a tournament rule can not violate a book rule, specifically ASA and PONY youth qualifier tourneys? For example, can the TD say it is okay for a player who has been substituted for to be a CR or for any player to be CR because the team has only 9 players?

In PONY, no. Although I did see a Zone Director change a rule in the middle of the Nationals last year, because he ruled wrong in a protest. It wasn't a big thing, but when he saw his mistake, he decided this was a rule we needed to ignore the rest of the tournament. It was a pitching violation in the SP Nationals. Just how much advantage can you get in SP by how the step is taken?

That being said, the rule cannot be changed. It has to be pure PONY rules in the qualifiers all the way. No exceptions. Except when they want to.

[Edited by TexBlue on Jun 28th, 2004 at 02:29 PM]

[Dakota]

Originally posted by TexBlue
That being said, the rule cannot be changed. It has to be pure PONY rules in the qualifiers all the way. No exceptions. Except when they want to.

And when I say there was no cannibalism in the navy, I mean there was some.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne
Yes, I knew those points.

By tournament rules, I referred to "qualifier tourneys",
those which lead to regional or zone and therefore might need to follow rules for championship play.

In ASA, TDs can circumvent the rules if done for the reason of completing the tournament (i.e., time limits, limited warm-ups,etc.)

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by TexBlue
Once the lineups have been exchanged and approved, they are official. Rule 3-1-A-1. Any changes made after this are a substitution.

Now, if it's a laid back game, like a rec game, the rules may be bent. If it's a tournament, I'm going with the rule book.

Hey, Glen, keep your dadgummed rain down there! This stuff we're getting today is coming from your area. I was calling a PONY Sectionals today, lost it. I was gonna call a High School All-Star tournament for the Texas Sports Festival on Sunday. Your rain messed that up too. Quit it, and keep the wet stuff yourself.

I have to second this. I was calling a USSSA College Look 18U, with teams from 8 states, and managed to get in one game before the heavens opened up.

[whiskers_ump]

Well Scott, and Rick.

It is now 13 straight days of rain here. The skies just
opened up again. I am scheduled to start an ASA State
tournament Friday, but it does not look good.

[Skahtboi]

Well..the weather guys just said that we have a brief dryout period this coming weekend. You know what that means. The summer drought is here!

[BoomerSooner]

Going back to the original question at hand, I think we may have all overlooked an important point about the lineup cards. The player's listed in the starting lineup must meet certain requirements before they can be substituted for (i.e. pitchers must face at least one batter, batter must take 1 AB). So in this case the listed "starting" player that was late obviously did not fulfill her requirement as the only thing that relieves a player from that requirement is injury or ejection (being late does not). So if a coach was told his player could not courtesy run, because she was listed on the starting line-up card then I'm sure the coach could kick up a nice fuss, maybe even file a protest, essentially for his own mistake, but nontheless a rule of the game was set aside when the substitute entered for the late "starter". So there we have a quite a conundrum to work out. I think the simple solution and the proper one would have been to accept an amendment to the starting line up.

[WestMichBlue]

"The player's listed in the starting lineup must meet certain requirements before they can be substituted for (i.e. pitchers must face at least one batter, batter must take 1 AB)."

What rule set are you talking about? Those certainly are NOT ASA rules, and the initial question said the game was under ASA rules.

Two things you should know. The players are officially in the game when the line-ups are approved in the pre-game conference, and (two) players can be substituted for anytime the ball is dead without any requirements for having physically participated in the game.

Ref: 3.4.1.A and 3.4.1.A.1. Also 3.4.6.A and 3.4.6.C

WMB