Ignominious play for 2 top 16U teams

[Ed Maeder]

I may sound confused but now that I have been educated again on the force play and in fact that there is no base to go back to. I guess I must ask the look back rule questions because it comes into play here after the runner has touched first and the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle. The pitcher did get to the circle with control but after the what is now a runner had already figured it out and was headed directly back to first. Now my thoughts are more inclined to say that there is no play because all we have is a runner after over running first returning to first. It was stated that she made no attempt to go to second, she had to have come back towards the infield and didn't go directly towards second, so she is committed to first but not until the pitcher is in the circle with control of the ball and at that time she was headed directly back to first. No play.

[Bagman62]

Eddie,

I think you got it!
BR hits fair ball, no play on BR at 1B so she can hit either bag, she touches the base and runs past it.
BR does not turn toward 2B.So she takes her time returning to 1B (White Bag) and can not be but our prior to touching 1B.
Look back rule can not be in effect until pitcher has control of the ball within the circle, without making a play on the runner and the runner either takes off for 2B or occupies 1B.
Runner is safe at 1B, Batter Up , Play Ball

[scottk_61]

I am still waiting on some of you guys who say you have an out to come up with a case book ruling or rule that supports the position you have taken.

I don't agree, but then again,,,,,,,,I don't know for sure.
I do know that right now, I would rule safe as I said earlier.

Come on, this one is keeping me awake, along with the fever hacking wheezing and general cruddy feeling I have in my head right now. (as opposed to the usual cruddy feeling in my head.)

Scott

[bethsdad]

Does POE 36 take care of this? "an appeal out if tagged by a defensive player with the ball , while off base "

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by bethsdad
Does POE 36 take care of this? "an appeal out if tagged by a defensive player with the ball , while off base "

No, I don't think it applies since this POE is talking about a TAG.

Still don't know the answer but I am going to make an attempt to call Walt Sparks or Henry Pollard tomorrow to get a ruling.

[bethsdad]

Originally posted by scottk_61

No, I don't think it applies since this POE is talking about a TAG.

Still don't know the answer but I am going to make an attempt to call Walt Sparks or Henry Pollard tomorrow to get a ruling.

Thats my point... NO TAG , safe at first. Brian

[greymule]

Runner reverses and dashes back toward first (she's made it to about the beginning of the running lane).

This information in the original post was key to me. It clearly places the runner in a position where she has retreated from 1B toward home.

In these other plays you guys are talking about, the runner has missed 1B and is past it, wandering in this direction or that. That situation would indeed require an appeal.

However, ASA does not require a tag for that appeal. As soon as a runner misses a base and is past it, a fielder with the ball can step on the base and appeal to the umpire, even if the runner is attempting to return to touch the missed base. (Of course OBR is totally different.)

The issue is whether, like a runner forced to 2B who retreats toward 1B and reinstates the force, a runner assumes the same liability by retreating from 1B (which is technically not a force but treated like one).

[scottk_61]

I have spent some time reading though the book, and admittedly not closely but I have to stand with this not being an out.
There is nothing that allows for this to be an out as the "ORIGINAL" play describes.

I would be glad though, if you could show me a ruling that would support the idea that has been presented.
That way, some of my games might get finished a little sooner with some easy outs.

Scott

[whiskers_ump]

Me too. Time to tell us Tom. If you don't soon I will
get a friend of yours over to this board...

[SC Ump]

Excellent post. If this had happened when I was on the field, I'm sure I would have been stumped. But I hope only momentarily. Thanks to everyone's input, I hope I will be ready if it ever happens to me.

Now I will know to do the following:

1. Make sure I watch for the lookback rule violation.

2. Do exactly as Tom did and stand a few feet up the line toward 1st with my arm pumping fair.

3. Keep my mouth shut and let my partner on the bases call safe or out.

[Dakota]

I still don't know if I called it correctly (which is why I posted the scenario). I discussed it this morning among some umpires at a tournament, and still am not sure.

If someone is able to get an official ruling from the NUS, that would be great.

As I was watching the final act of this play, the reinstating of the force did occur to me, but I decided against it (in the fleeting seconds). My ruling was safe, ruling that the runner made a long, elaborate, return to 1st after overrunning.

That ruling would have worked even with a tag, but my mind was so unsure of the call at the time, I can't honestly say what I would have called had there been a tag made.

I've been second-guessing ever since.

Arguing against the reinstatement of the force is the runner does on "occupy" home and also the fact that the path a runner follows after overrunning 1st is essentially unregulated so long as there is no try for 2nd.

[TexBlue]

I agree with you. Unless the BR went over 1st, touching it, then I don't think I'd call the force reinstated again, either. She's safe, let the defense come out and give me a rule saying different. Don't show it, just give it.

[whiskers_ump]

Tom,

I like the call.

Rick,

You had all this rain. Six straight days. Lost a tournament
in Lake Charles, La., this weekend. ASA State next weekend, but
it isn't looking too good.

[CecilOne]

I also agree with the safe call, but only because of the lack of regulation about overruns, not because it isn't reinstatement; although the effect is the same.

Even though this is technically not defined as a force, the batter-runner is obligated to advance to 1st; so same effect.

In NFHS, where we have the elaborate (and dumb) rule about what a BR can do after overrunning 1st, there is a requirement of returning directly to 1st in some cases. In those cases, I believe the force (sorry, obligation to advance) would be reinstated and this play would be an out. It also might depend on whether the base is touched on the return, but that is a separate issue.