Ignominious play for 2 top 16U teams

[Dakota]

Last night, game between two of the better 16U teams in the south metro.

No runners on. No outs. Batter hits a towering pop up over 1st base foul territory.

Batter assumes she's dead, but trots slowly toward 1st anyway.

Three fielders converge on the ball (F1, F2, and F3). None call it. The ball drops untouched among them and spins back into fair territory. F1 casually picks up the ball and heads toward the circle.

BR has crossed 1st while this is going on, and seeing she is not out with the catch, circles around, and starts trotting back toward home to resume her at-bat. Obviously, everyone is assuming foul.

Meanwhile, I'm standing a few feet up the line toward 1st with my arm pumping "FAIR." Nobody seems to notice.

Finally, both coaches shout "FAIR BALL...FAIR BALL..."

Runner reverses and dashes back toward first (she's made it to about the beginning of the running lane). F1 throws to F4 who has run to cover first. Ball beats runner to the bag. No tag is made.

Call?

[Edited by Dakota on Jun 25th, 2004 at 02:47 PM]

[greymule]

Out. The BR reinstated the "force" at 1B when she proceeded toward home. (She is not out for stepping backward toward home, because she was not doing so to avoid or delay a tag.)

[Dukat]

I agree as I am sure you did but I bet you had one heck of a time explaining it to the coaches

[whiskers_ump]

Tom,

Sounds like fun, and an out.

[scottk_61]

In your sitch, you state the BR has crossed 1st and then heads back toward home.
This does not re introduce the force.
Once a runner has passed a base, that runner is considered to have touched the base until appealed.
If the defense didn't make an appeal (doesn't sound like it in this case) you don't have an out.

Am I misunderstanding something about your play description?

[greymule]

This does not re introduce the force.

Why not? If a runner passes 2B and then retreats back toward 1B, the force is reinstated. Same with any other base.

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by greymule
This does not re introduce the force.

Why not? If a runner passes 2B and then retreats back toward 1B, the force is reinstated. Same with any other base.

Ok, guys, I have been sick for the past couple of days and am not doing real well now.
Quote me the rule that supports this please.

I am not firing on all cylinders and for the life of me, I cannot remember a rule or casebook play that supports this.

Thanks,

Pass the tylenol and the robitussin.

Scott

[Ed Maeder]

Did she retouch first base on her way back to home? If not I don't see how she reinstated the force at first. I think she would have to be tagged just as if she had overrun a base. As I read your play she passed first base and circled around and returned towards home. If I circle around second and turn back to go to first I have not reinstated the force unless I retag second. Why would this be any different? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Edited by Ed Maeder on Jun 25th, 2004 at 01:34 PM]

[greymule]

If the runner retreats in the the direction of the previous base, she reinstates the force whether she retouches a base or not.

This is in no way treated like a missed base. Whether she tagged the base or not is irrelevant. She is now considered not yet at the base.

Of course, there has to be a force to begin with.

Abel on 1B. Baker hits a line drive to right. Abel thinks it's a hit, so he takes off. The outfielder traps the ball. Abel rounds 2B and is a few steps toward 3B when the coach wrongly yells that the ball was caught. Abel (a) runs directly back to 1B, ignoring 2B, or (b) runs back to 2B but misses it and then retreats to 1B, or (c) retreats, tags 2B, and then goes toward 1B.

In all 3 cases Abel has reinstated the force. This is the same in OBR because in all cases Baker is still a baserunner and the force is still on.

These plays are entirely different when the runner is not forced.

I'll supply substantiation when I get home.

[Ed Maeder]

I stand corrected. In the definition of a force out it states if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base first occupied, the force play is reinstated and the runner may again be put out if the defense tags the runner or the base which the runner is forced. It doesn't say anything about having to retouch bases in reverse order. Thanks greymule! Did you call her out Dakota?

[Edited by Ed Maeder on Jun 25th, 2004 at 02:44 PM]

[ChampaignBlue]

"Runner reverses and dashes back toward first (she's made it to about the beginning of the running lane). F1 throws to F4 who has run to cover first. Ball beats runner to the bag. No tag is made.

Call?"

Nothing to call.

BR is not retreating to a previous base because there is no previous base, she did not "occupy" home.

BR did not go to the dugout so no abandonment issue there.

BR did not attempt to advance to 2nd so no issue there.

You might, if you were really reaching get a delay of game for not returning promptly to 1st but the same could be said of the pitcher.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Ed Maeder
I stand corrected. In the definition of a force out it states if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base first occupied, the force play is reinstated and the runner may again be put out if the defense tags the runner or the base which the runner is forced. It doesn't say anything about having to retouch bases in reverse order. Thanks greymule! Did you call her out Dakota?

[Edited by Ed Maeder on Jun 25th, 2004 at 02:44 PM]

But, by definition, this is not a "force out". This player never occupied a base to which return and reinstate the force.

Why has anyone not asked if the pitcher made it back to within the circle with the ball when the player walked back past 1B?

[Dakota]

I'll tell you my ruling a bit later (not saying I was right, but ...)

To answer a few of the questions...

The BR did touch first on her initial trot down, but did not touch on her way back.

She made no attempt toward second (she was thinking foul).

The pitcher did not make it back into the circle before the runner had started to head back, but was in the circle by the time she figured out what was happening.

The runner figured it out first and was already running back to first before the pitcher made a play.

[greymule]

Of course once again we acknowledge that the out at first is technically not a force out, and the BR does not meet the strict definition of a forced runner. However, it is virtually always treated as a force, and both rule and case book often refer to it as such.

I see no reason not to treat it like a force play in this case. Or, to please the purists, we can say that by returning toward home, BR has again placed herself in the position of having to reach 1B before a fielder with the ball touches the base.

BR gets a single, touches 1B, and then runs back toward home and stops in the baseline 6 feet from the plate. This is a tag play now?

Has ASA ever ruled on this?

[Steve M]

Tom,
OK, going from 1st toward home resinstates the "force". I don't care that the B-R did not retouch 1B, tahat's an appeal & a can of worms that this question didn't open, so I won't either.

F1's throw to F4 beats the runner to the bag, I have an out.

I agree with Greymule & Roger Greene - who pointed this out several years ago, B-R being thrown out at 1B does not meet the definition of a force out.

Speaking Fed now (but ASA appears to at least not disagree), essentially (according to a buddy, who was a member of Fed's rules committee), it looks like a force, it acts like a force, we're not dealing with that.