The Pitcher is Wild

[chuck chopper]

All the Rec. Councils I ump use a (3 in an inning, 4 in a game) limit on hit batters.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Furthermore, this is not a safety issue as some people in this thread have put forward. I am sure that there are many officials reading my post and thinking that I am doing a flip-flop on a safety issue but I am being consistent with my beliefs.

Me, too (re: the second sentence I quoted).

However, if you notice carefully, the original post said the pitcher had good speed. Mike's post (which I thought was a good solution IF there is a safety issue) was put forward based on an assumed judgment by the field umpire that there WAS a safety issue. IOW, safety not unruly fans was the priority.

I do not believe the umpire is obligated to go above and beyond the rules in dealing with these kinds of issues (especially if that going above and beyond is motivated by some fear of lawyers), but I thought Mike's solution was creative and would be effective in dealing with a situation where the umpire judged there WAS a safety concern that he wanted to deal with.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
It is not a sports official's job to tell a coach that his/her pitcher is not cutting the mustard and that you want the pitcher replaced.

Furthermore, this is not a safety issue as some people in this thread have put forward. I am sure that there are many officials reading my post and thinking that I am doing a flip-flop on a safety issue but I am being consistent with my beliefs. The rules of the sport define the safety issues and a pitcher who does not have good control is not one of them. And the thing you should absolutely not do is what IRISHMAFIA has suggested. The girl is wild, let it alone, her coach will deal with it in his/her own way.

After all, we do not take kindly to a coach telling us that we are not doing a very good job, so I would not suggest telling a coach that his/her pitcher is not doing a very good job either.

Obviously, I completely disagree. It IS a safety issue if it is apparent the batters are in danger of being hit by a pitcher which just doesn't have it that game.

In the scenario offered, the coach made it clear that he wasn't concerned about the control and wasn't going to remove the pitcher. My concern isn't the coach's feelings, but the batters. I'm also not talking about 1 or 2 hit batters. I'm talking about more than a half-dozen in a few inning and it being beyond doubt that the pitcher has a problem.

As a 12 yo is being loaded into an ambulance with a broken ankle, arm, torn-up knee after being the 10th batter hit by a pitcher, I would like you to turn to the parents and tell them that is wasn't your issue. I'm not talking about changing or making up rules, but strictly working within the wording of the book. Just because I have $5,000,000 liability insurance doesn't mean I want to test my coverage.

ASA made the "injury above rules" statement when they permitted umpires to stop play and award bases due to an injured player. I don't necessarily care for it, but it places the onus on the umpire to be an authoritive figure on the field when it comes to a player's well being. Telling a jury that you didn't do anything because it isn't covered in a rule book probably will not get you off the hook. If asked for a rule book reference, I would undoubtedly cite 10.1.

Mr. Greene can probably jump in on how it would wash in a courtroom, but to be honest, I don't put that much faith on however many individuals are in the box accepting the "game" over what they would perceive as a common sense move.

JMHO,

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
As a 12 yo is being loaded into an ambulance with a broken ankle, arm, torn-up knee after being the 10th batter hit by a pitcher, I would like you to turn to the parents and tell them that is wasn't your issue. I'm not talking about changing or making up rules, but strictly working within the wording of the book. Just because I have $5,000,000 liability insurance doesn't mean I want to test my coverage.

ASA made the "injury above rules" statement when they permitted umpires to stop play and award bases due to an injured player. I don't necessarily care for it, but it places the onus on the umpire to be an authoritive figure on the field when it comes to a player's well being. Telling a jury that you didn't do anything because it isn't covered in a rule book probably will not get you off the hook. If asked for a rule book reference, I would undoubtedly cite 10.1.

I don't agree with your views on an umpire's obligations in these situations.

Stopping play so the proper folks can care for an incapacitated player is completely different from being obligated (legally or morally) to remove an unskilled player because her lack of skill may pose a somewhat increased risk of injury than would a more skilled player.

Speaking ASA, unless we were talking about a real fireball pitcher with no control, I think it is unlikely I would ever use your "make him an offer he can't refuse" approach. However, if the need arose, I think it would be a useful tool.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
I don't agree with your views on an umpire's obligations in these situations.

Stopping play so the proper folks can care for an incapacitated player is completely different from being obligated (legally or morally) to remove an unskilled player because her lack of skill may pose a somewhat increased risk of injury than would a more skilled player.

Speaking ASA, unless we were talking about a real fireball pitcher with no control, I think it is unlikely I would ever use your "make him an offer he can't refuse" approach. However, if the need arose, I think it would be a useful tool.

I didn't say it was an obligation. I consider this a preemptive move. And, BTW, I'm not removing anyone. I'm just giving that coach the opportunity to complete the game. Remember, most ASA rules, including this area, are not age specific.

It is not uncommon to find a girl who can throw the ball a ton, but have no control especially at the younger ages. Control is something that can be taught, but that doesn't mean a pitcher retains that speed which got her noticed. As we all know, control is the key factor in a good pitcher.

As I stated, I don't care for the move, but the powers that be in ASA (Commissioners and Player Reps) enacted a rule which directs the umpire to make a non-medical decision with injured players. I don't see it a far reach from that to what I am suggesting.

BTW, how ironic that today I received a letter from Blue Cross of CA requesting information on the cause of my recent knee surgery. They make no secret that they want the information for the purposes of determing "if Blue Cross of California is entitled to be reimbursed by some other responsible party associated with or involved in an accident." I don't believe you need a law degree to figure out the umpire will be scrutinized should a patient note that the injury or accident occured during a ball game.

As I said before, JMHO,



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on May 13th, 2004 at 07:03 PM]

[DaveASA/FED]

Boy this discussion happened at a perfect time for me. I am UIC of a small ASA rec legue. We had an issue earlier this week in 10U where this exact thing happened a 10yo with decent speed for 10 was wild and hit a few girls (depends on who you talk to my PU told me 5-6 in the 3 innings she pitched, other team hit 2 but much slower coaches remeber 10-12 of course no one wrote it correctly in the official book so it's all memory) Anyway I have been approached by SEVERAL coaches and parents, as well as our board president, about what we are going to do about this. My answer was simple we tried a few years ago to put a league rule in like someone else mentioned here 3 in an inning 4 in a game and everyone threw a fit!! But I do feel for these people, some of them have 8 year olds that just came out of coaches pitch and they are scared to death of the "wild speed demon" and don't want to even bat. Add whining parents on top of that are threatening to take their children and leave if she starts hitting players again and it gets ugly fast! I see both sides of it, coaches should pull someone who risks hurting someone, is it a safety concern who knows? We could argue that you could break a rib with a good speed pitch. I know one thing you could scare a kid right out of playing ball again! But I also don't like to force a coach to pull a player unless it is absolutely necessary, and supported by the rules. The problem is I don't think we will ever get a hard fast rule from a governing body to enforce on this topic, I may be wrong but I see it as another judgement thing that is hard to enforce without taking crap from someone!!!