Mechanics Question

OK. Here's a mechanics question.

R1 on 2b. R2 on 1b. One out. B3 hits an infield fly. Kinda windy, but F4 only takes two steps and waits for fly ball. BU raises right arm with closed fist (infield fly rule signal). PU sees BU's raised arm, but elects not to invoke infield fly rule. Ball falls untouched. Now R1 advances to 3b, where she is ruled out by force (F4 retrieved ball and threw to F5, who was standing on 3b).

After wards, PU tells defensive coach that, in his judgement, F4 did not get to ball with little effort. Conditions were too windy (huh?).

Question: Who's call is infield fly? And what do you do as BU if, in your judgement, it is an infield fly and you have already given the signal (but not vocalized)?

[BigUmpJohn]

Originally posted by VaASAump
OK. Here's a mechanics question.

R1 on 2b. R2 on 1b. One out. B3 hits an infield fly. Kinda windy, but F4 only takes two steps and waits for fly ball. BU raises right arm with closed fist (infield fly rule signal). PU sees BU's raised arm, but elects not to invoke infield fly rule. Ball falls untouched. Now R1 advances to 3b, where she is ruled out by force (F4 retrieved ball and threw to F5, who was standing on 3b).

After wards, PU tells defensive coach that, in his judgement, F4 did not get to ball with little effort. Conditions were too windy (huh?).

Question: Who's call is infield fly? And what do you do as BU if, in your judgement, it is an infield fly and you have already given the signal (but not vocalized)?

Not say anything. I always thought that the PU made the infield fly call, as they had the call on pretty much all fly balls.

I sometimes help my partner out by putting my right fist down near my leg when I believe that we have an IF. But, ultimately, it is his call and JUDGMENT to make.

I sometimes can't remember this, however, is wind and sun a factor in judging the IF?

[chuck chopper]

This should had been discussed in pregame chat between both UMPS. It is plate umpires call, thus it was never called..no infield fly. Force out at 3rd stands.
Also I agree that on a windy day you cannot be in too much of a hurry to call infield fly.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by BigUmpJohn

Not say anything. I always thought that the PU made the infield fly call, as they had the call on pretty much all fly balls.

I sometimes help my partner out by putting my right fist down near my leg when I believe that we have an IF. But, ultimately, it is his call and JUDGMENT to make.

I sometimes can't remember this, however, is wind and sun a factor in judging the IF?

No! Stop! Don't get into this petty BS! The rule is too simple to screw up. Don't read anything into it. I don't care what the conditions are, that is not a requirement to the rule.

The only requirement is that the infielder be capable of catching the ball with normal effort. PERIOD! If the conditions are that bad that it cannot be made with normal effort, the rule does not apply. IT IS THE UMPIRE'S JUDGMENT AT THE TIME THE BALL IS RISING TO IT'S APEX! Don't look at the trees or hold up your finger to see how windy it is, look at the fielder and see if s/he is struggling with the play. If you have a partner, DEFINITELY look at them for possible help. They DO have a better grasp on the location of the ball as it relates to that of the fielder's.

If it is "iffy", I would prefer to error on the side of applying the IF and protecting the runners. Though it is a correctable error if not called, I wouldn't make it a habit of waiting to see what happens and then applying the IF after the fact.

[BigUmpJohn]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

quote:
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Originally posted by BigUmpJohn

quote:
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Originally posted by VaASAump
OK. Here's a mechanics question.

R1 on 2b. R2 on 1b. One out. B3 hits an infield fly. Kinda windy, but F4 only takes two steps and waits for fly ball. BU raises right arm with closed fist (infield fly rule signal). PU sees BU's raised arm, but elects not to invoke infield fly rule. Ball falls untouched. Now R1 advances to 3b, where she is ruled out by force (F4 retrieved ball and threw to F5, who was standing on 3b).

After wards, PU tells defensive coach that, in his judgement, F4 did not get to ball with little effort. Conditions were too windy (huh?).

Question: Who's call is infield fly? And what do you do as BU if, in your judgement, it is an infield fly and you have already given the signal (but not vocalized)?
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Not say anything. I always thought that the PU made the infield fly call, as they had the call on pretty much all fly balls.

I sometimes help my partner out by putting my right fist down near my leg when I believe that we have an IF. But, ultimately, it is his call and JUDGMENT to make.

I sometimes can't remember this, however, is wind and sun a factor in judging the IF?
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No! Stop! Don't get into this petty BS! The rule is too simple to screw up. Don't read anything into it. I don't care what the conditions are, that is not a requirement to the rule.

The only requirement is that the infielder be capable of catching the ball with normal effort. PERIOD! If the conditions are that bad that it cannot be made with normal effort, the rule does not apply. IT IS THE UMPIRE'S JUDGMENT AT THE TIME THE BALL IS RISING TO IT'S APEX! Don't look at the trees or hold up your finger to see how windy it is, look at the fielder and see if s/he is struggling with the play. If you have a partner, DEFINITELY look at them for possible help. They DO have a better grasp on the location of the ball as it relates to that of the fielder's.

If it is "iffy", I would prefer to error on the side of applying the IF and protecting the runners. Though it is a correctable error if not called, I wouldn't make it a habit of waiting to see what happens and then applying the IF after the fact.

Are you sure? You don't seem confident enough in your answer.

Ok. Gotcha. Neither wind, nor sun (or rain, sleet, or snow) affect the IF. Nothing difficult about that.

[FUBLUE]

I agree with Mike, it's not a difficult rule...let's not read too much into it. One thing I DO discuss with my partner is who is going to call the infield fly. By book, yes, it is the plate umpire. But the base umpire has a really good look at the ball, since they have the same angle as a fielder does. So I always ask my partner to call it if they know it is an infield fly and don't hear me call it. Once I, as plate umpire, hear them call it, I'll echo it (as they do when I call it). That way the coach has TWO people to yell at!

Thanks guys. Yes, I was the BU. Guess I should never take anything for granted. I have always worked with blues who called IF rule if they saw my signal (and they never took wind, sun, rain, clouds, eclipses, the way the moon is lined up with the galaxy of stars, etc, etc, etc into consideration).

Being my first year doing Federation, this topic never came up in our clinics. Shame on me for assuming.

Will definitely include this in my pre-games with fellow blues. Was kinda hard on this game since my partner arrived right at game time. Didn't have much time to do pre-game with him.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by BigUmpJohn


Ok. Gotcha. Neither wind, nor sun (or rain, sleet, or snow) affect the IF. Nothing difficult about that.

Well, yeah, sorta what I said. Man, where did my confidence go?

Obviously, those things can cause the fielder to misjudge or struggle with the ball. I just don't think the umpire should preset parameters because of foul weather prior to actually witnessing what is occuring on the field.

[WestMichBlue]

Even though we'd like to make the call when the ball is at its apex, I think that it can be called much later. If the fielder is having difficulty, why not wait until the ball is almost down before calling the IF.

If our job is to protect the runners, time is not an issue. On a fly ball, runners are going to be holding very close to their base. They are not going anywhere until the ball hits the ground. As long as we call the IF before that point, they know they do not have to run IF the ball drops.

And whats this about wind or sun or rising tides. When we talk of "ordinary effort," we are talking about the ability of an athlete on the field of play. If we have a towering fly ball over 3B and the wind blows it all the way to 1B, somebody on that infield damn well better catch that ball! If they don't, and you don't give an IF, then there is a ball laying on or near the infield and an easy DP is a couple throws away.

The only time I am going to allow for wind to effect my call is when the high fly is being blown to the outfield. If an infielder has to turn their back to chase the ball into the outfield, then I'll wave off the IF. Even if they haven't gone very deep into the OF, and let it drop, they are going away from any play, or the outfielder still has to come into make a play so the near automatic DP is not going to happen.

WMB

[whiskers_ump]

Taken from the Official Publication of the NFHS - Softball
Guide 2004 - edited by Mary Struckhoff, NFHS Softball Rules,
Editor.

Wind conditions should be considered before making an infield fly call.
Be especially careful on windy days when judging whether a pop up is an IF.
The FIR is designed to protect the offensive team from an undeserved double
play. You don't want to call an infield fly and have the wind blow the ball
away from the fielders and fall safely to the ground. That defeats the purpose
and intent of the rule, which is to protect and not penalize the offense.
Conversely, sun in a fielder's eyes is not a factor when judging if a fly ball
is an IF.
IFR responsbility should be shared coverage. The base umpire and the plate
umpire should have equal authority to call the IF, except when the pop up is
near a baseline. Plate should always handle this situtation. Base
should echo. The IF is a judgment call and either umpire can make the call.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Even though we'd like to make the call when the ball is at its apex, I think that it can be called much later. If the fielder is having difficulty, why not wait until the ball is almost down before calling the IF.

Didn't and don't disagree. You need to remember that there is going to be a lot of noise as the ball gets closer to the ground. It's a good possibility someone other than the umpire is going to scream, "That's an infield fly" and confuse the hell out of everyone. Then you have coaches screaming at runners who don't know if they are coming or going, etc, etc, etc. Now you may have an argument about putting the runners in jeopardy, putting the defense at a disadvantage and whatever other excuse someone is going to make to avoid any perceived shortcomings.

I just said that it shouldn't become a habit of making the late call.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
IFR responsbility should be shared coverage. The base umpire and the plate umpire should have equal authority to call the IF, ...The IF is a judgment call and either umpire can make the call.

Well, finally to the nub of the issue. The base umpire raising his fist is a direct IF call, not umpire-to-umpire communication that needs to be echoed by the PU for the call to be made. Whether or not the two umpires agreed in the original scenario that this was an IF, the fact is one umpire called it, and the other overruled. This is a judgment call. It was the umpire who overruled who was wrong, regardless of whether the wind was blowing at 0 or 50 mph. And, he was wrong a second time by showing up his partner with the coach.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Dakota

Well, finally to the nub of the issue. The base umpire raising his fist is a direct IF call, not umpire-to-umpire communication that needs to be echoed by the PU for the call to be made. Whether or not the two umpires agreed in the original scenario that this was an IF, the fact is one umpire called it, and the other overruled. This is a judgment call. It was the umpire who overruled who was wrong, regardless of whether the wind was blowing at 0 or 50 mph. And, he was wrong a second time by showing up his partner with the coach.

Tom,
I totally agree, the umpire that overruled, went way beyond his
authority. Judgement call by BU and PU (and it was a PhewU)
should not have even come into the play. He and I would have had
a nice chat after the game. Hell, maybe even right then and thar.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

I started reading this thread and wondered why some were saying that the IF was the PU's responsibility and that the BU should be quiet.

I don't find anything like that in the softball mechanics manual.

The umpire's manual for baseball is formatted quite differently... and says several things different that what was being said here. The mechanics ought to be quite similar.

Here are some of the things I noted:
IF signal is "right hand raised overhead, with your index finger pointing at the ball."

"Don't be in a hurry to call the infield fly; make your call as the ball starts downward."

"Usually the plate umpire calls the infield fly first. This doesn't excuse a base umpire from making the call."

"When your partner calls the infield fly, regardless of how you see or how you feel about his judgement, you have to go along."

tootles!

[Ed Maeder]

I had a situation in a national fast pitch tournament that had a bit of this same taste to it. A1 at second A2 at first one out. Batter hits fly ball that is going to land just in front of second base. I am third base umpire and am patiently waiting for the call from the plate umpire. We had already communicated that the infield fly situation was in effect. The first base umpire was in the B slot and nothing comes from either umpire. At the last minute I raise my fist and call infield fly. The play continued on because not everyone heard the call from an unusual spot and the shortstop picked up the ball uncaught and tossed it to her second baseman who touched the runner on second base then touched second base for the third out. Everyone from the defence was all happy and everyone from the offence was going crazy about the call not being made. Little did they know that the third base coach the thirdbaseman and I all knew what was happening. These were womans A players and they all knew the game very well. The shortstop made the play look like she could not handle the catch with ordenary effort and in turn made others believe this. Although she turned the double play with the easiest of effort. After the dust cleared and both coaches were on the field we got it all cleared up, that it was not only the plate umpires call and the intent of the rule was to keep from happening what did happen. Both coaches were satisfied and we played on with runners on first and second and two outs. The next batter hit a single and scored the winning run from second. Oh I forgot to mention that this was the bottom of the 13th and we were tied 1 to 1.

[Edited by Ed Maeder on Apr 11th, 2004 at 03:59 PM]