Retroactive appeal?

[whiskers_ump]

"Close play at 1B, ball in dirt, pops out of F3's glove just as B-R jumps over the bag. Blue signals safe.

While still stretched out and touching the bag, F3 picks up ball, stands up, looks at B-R strolling back to 1B, and throws ball to F1. Blue makes no call and moves on to B position.

Defensive Coach calls for appeal, claiming that B-R missed 1B. Blue says "too late, Coach, runner is already back on base." Coach claims that F3 touched the base while having possesion of the ball before the runner returned to the base."

Your call?
__________________________________________

Safe, no proper appeal was made prior to BR returing
to 1B. Even BB changed that rule this year.

[TexBlue]

I gotta go with the blue on this one. Good mechanics, good call, good reaction to the late appeal. I'm not sure a hesitation call at 1st would have done anything either way. I believe the safe call should be made. However, if no call was made, I'm not sure it would give anything away here. BUT , consistency is a good ruler for the umpire. If he always makes the call at 1st, as he should, he should make it this time, with no hesitation, after he determines the correct call.

After reading your posts and re-reading the original, I would like to say this is how I would handle this (ASA and USSSA slowpitch is my normal game): Watch the whole play through, and as soon as the first baseman actually has the ball in his hand, call the runner out. He cannot be called safe since he overran the base. I have UIC's here who'll ream my *** if I called him safe without him touching the bag.

[TexBlue]

ASA POE.1.L states " If a runner passes first base before the throw arrives, the runner is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal play is made..........If an appeal is made in either situation, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live." So, now, Ref Ump Welsch, if they talk to you about it, quote it back to them. If they still insist, well, you're on your own there......

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Ref Ump Welsch
After reading your posts and re-reading the original, I would like to say this is how I would handle this (ASA and USSSA slowpitch is my normal game): Watch the whole play through, and as soon as the first baseman actually has the ball in his hand, call the runner out. He cannot be called safe since he overran the base. I have UIC's here who'll ream my *** if I called him safe without him touching the bag.

I don't believe your UIC has a handle on the rule.

I will simply quote Tom (iceblues reply to this post earlier)

QUOTE "I would prefer either no call at all until the play is complete (baseball style - which, of course, would tip everyone that there has not yet been a safe or an out), or have everyone understand that acquiring the base, legally, includes passing the base but missing it, and understand that that is ruled safe unless appealed. That way, there is no defensive confusing regarding the immediate safe call, and the defense would understand that the safe call does not mean there may be no appeal." UNQUOTE

tom

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[whiskers_ump]

RICK,

I see we said about the same thing. However, when I posted
I went back to review my post and yours was not there. I
also note that it was sent several minutes before mine. I
guess this storm with strongs winds has everything in reverse.

[CecilOne]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Originally posted by CecilOne

Martian, you lost me on that one. Where do you have the umpire making no call?

Earthling,
My impression from:

"Anytime there is something amiss, the umpire should hesitate slightly to see if the play may continue. Making an immediate safe call and then a reversal if F3 picks up the ball and chases the runner down the line for an obvious live ball appeal, may offer a poor impression."

is that you are suggesting not making a call on the original safe pass of the base, which implied to me a conflict with your previous comment:

"No, the umpire made the correct call, in the correct manner. The runner beat the play, the runner is to be ruled safe and that is the correct call. Now, if an appeal takes place, the umpire makes a ruling on the appeal, not a reversal of the initial call. "

[IRISHMAFIA]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CecilOne

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Earthling,
My impression from:

"Anytime there is something amiss, the umpire should hesitate slightly to see if the play may continue. Making an immediate safe call and then a reversal if F3 picks up the ball and chases the runner down the line for an obvious live ball appeal, may offer a poor impression."

is that you are suggesting not making a call on the original safe pass of the base, which implied to me a conflict with your previous comment:

"No, the umpire made the correct call, in the correct manner. The runner beat the play, the runner is to be ruled safe and that is the correct call. Now, if an appeal takes place, the umpire makes a ruling on the appeal, not a reversal of the initial call. "

Earthling! If you only knew!

No. My point was that the hesitation allows an umpire to see if the play is finished. Just as suggested on a missed tag/missed plate, the umpire should hesitate to allow the play to finish. At 1B, this would avoid some confusion if the umpire allowed the continuous motion to proceed. For example, in the scenario offered, if F3 immediately picks up the ball and chases down the runner, it is obvious he is aware of the missed base. The hesitation allows this live ball appeal to continue without the confusion of F3 hearing a safe and stopping dead in his tracks.

If this does occur, the umpire should hold off on the initial safe call, but when the runner is tagged, the call should still be, (point to runner with left hand) "On appeal, out!"

I was not suggesting the runner should not initially be ruled safe, but to just let the play continue if that is what is happening.

[CecilOne]

I guess I missed the "immediately" in "if F3 immediately picks up the ball and chases "