If you rewrote the FP pitching rule...

[Dakota]

...how would it change?

Here is the situation, on the field, around the country. (I think these are all facts, but maybe not...)[list=A][*] The illegal foot mechanics rules (crow hop, leap, outside 24") are not uniformly enforced[*] Many umpires just plain don't make the call[*] The different levels call it differently (greatest enforcement at 12U or so, least at NCAA)[*] There is natural tendancy of people to copy the "big boys" (or girls), and hence the lower level pitchers try to copy the Team USA or college pitchers, the lower level umpires seem also to move in the direction of emulating the NCAA or international blues.[*] The crow hop rule, for one thing, is just a bit intimidating for an umpire to enforce, due to its complexity, and the lack of up front, frank training. There are no POEs or Case Plays dealing with the margins of this rule, for example.[/list=A]
The totality of this is bad for the game; bad for the integrity of the umpires; bad for the confidence of the coaches; bad all around, IMO

So, if you could change the rule, what would it say?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
...how would it change?

Here is the situation, on the field, around the country. (I think these are all facts, but maybe not...)[list=A][*] The illegal foot mechanics rules (crow hop, leap, outside 24") are not uniformly enforced[*] Many umpires just plain don't make the call[*] The different levels call it differently (greatest enforcement at 12U or so, least at NCAA)[*] There is natural tendancy of people to copy the "big boys" (or girls), and hence the lower level pitchers try to copy the Team USA or college pitchers, the lower level umpires seem also to move in the direction of emulating the NCAA or international blues.[*] The crow hop rule, for one thing, is just a bit intimidating for an umpire to enforce, due to its complexity, and the lack of up front, frank training. There are no POEs or Case Plays dealing with the margins of this rule, for example.[/list=A]
The totality of this is bad for the game; bad for the integrity of the umpires; bad for the confidence of the coaches; bad all around, IMO

So, if you could change the rule, what would it say?

Here you go, all levels and classifications. If I were king, the rule would be:

Move the pitcher's plate back 6'-8';
Pitcher must start from the present set position defined by ASA with the except only the pivot foot required to remain in contact with the plate;
A rocking motion or step to the rear is allowed;
Pitch starts when hands are separated;
The wrist must be inside the pitcher's elbow throughout the delivery;
If a step is taken during the delivery, it must be forward and within the 24" of the plate;
Ball must be delivered underhand second time past the hip;
The pitcher may not touch the "circle" with any part of their body or uniform at anytime during the delivery.

Illegal pitch shall be called:
If the pitcher disengages the plate with the pivot foot on a step or rock to the rear or if the pitcher violates the "circle" rule (above).

Effect:

Disengage plate - Immediate dead ball. Ball on the batter.
"Circle" rule - Delayed dead ball. Coach's option: Ball on batter or result of the play.

You asked for it, there it is.


[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Feb 28th, 2004 at 09:51 AM]

[greymule]

The totality of this is bad for the game; bad for the integrity of the umpires; bad for the confidence of the coaches; bad all around, IMO

Couldn't agree more.

I'd go along with all of Mike's suggestions, except that 6 to 8 feet might be too far back. However, moving the distance back might obviate the need for minute and detailed restrictions on the pitcher. (No hops in the air, but if it's a drag, don't worry about whether or how much the knee buckled, don't worry about how far the arm has progressed at what point—at that distance it doesn't matter.)

How about a line somewhere in front of the rubber? As long as the pitcher doesn't step on or over the line before the release, don't worry about where she plants?

Rec leagues might have a problem with the increased distance.

Definitely lower the penalty to simply a ball on the batter. Reserve the base award for things like faking a delivery and throwing to a base.

I'm puzzled, however, as to how the pitcher can touch the circle during the delivery.

[bethsdad]

I assume by the rule of stepping on (or out) of the circle you would not worry about leaping or a crowhop. Brian

[IRISHMAFIA]

Grey, first you ask for a line and then note confusion as to why I included such a rule. See below.

Originally posted by bethsdad
I assume by the rule of stepping on (or out) of the circle you would not worry about leaping or a crowhop. Brian

That's the idea. This is why I suggested you move the pitcher's plate back because we are now going to ignore the leap and crow hop.

With the restriction of staying within the circle on the delivery, they can only go so far with whatever method they choose to use.

Please note: I would never expect anything like this to ever become the rule for a few reasons. First would be the "old school" folks who wouldn't understand the need. The need really doesn't exist, but it gives game officials the ability to concentrate on calling the game at hand and not worry about the "cheating" pitchers. Second would be the people who believe that a 1-0, ten inning game is exciting and that pitching is the show and the batters are a necessary evil. Third, you would have the coaches who realize that their pitcher may have just lost her advantage and there is no longer a method he can teach to beat the system short of throwing side-arm or over-hand.

Remember, Dakota asked for it from umpires and that is the manner in which I responded.

[CecilOne]

I would make the illegal pitch dependent on whether the catcher is "about to receive" the ball.

[WestMichBlue]

I donÂ’t have a problem with the pitching distances, which advance from 35Â’ to 43Â’ as the pitcher gains physical strength and ability. Note that batters have shortened the pitching distance by as much as 5Â’ by crowding the front of the box; if they arenÂ’t concerned, why move the pitcher back? Improved batting skills are closing the gap between pitchers and batters. I donÂ’t see a high school team worth itÂ’s salt that doesnÂ’t have at least one .500+ batter, and many have two. My granddaughter, a shrimp of a girl with no power, still batted over .300 at JV ball.

If anything, you might shrink the circle from 16’ dia to 14’ and not allow the stride foot to land completely outside it. This would cut down on the big push and probably minimize the illegal (or perceived illegal) actions associated with it. May be a moot point as more younger pitchers are going away from the long leap ‘n drag style in favor of a more controlled pitching motion. (Which is a further indication they can no longer overpower the hitters and must focus more on position and movement of the ball.)

I agree with Mike on allowing a step back. NFHS allows it; ASA does for Men and JO Boys; time for ASA to allow it for the girls. IMO, the ASA rule is cause for many of the leaping issues. With both feet tied so close to each other (4” apart), the ASA pitcher tends to drive her body up and out for the forward drive. The HS pitcher, starting from behind the plate, tends to drive her body forward (level, more than up).

A simple wording change and minor modifications can eliminate all the Illegal Pitch confusion.

1. Crow Hop – Go with NFHS definition that CH is a re-plant of the pitching foot. The ASA “re-push” just confuses the issue. Then get the timing right! The ISF has it right; a CH occurs when the pivot foot replants before the stride foot breaks contact with the plate. (Or, if we allow the step back, then “before the stride foot passes over the plate.”) Modify ASA 6.3.h and NFHS 6.2.c with “Replanting the pivot foot prior to the stride foot passing over the plate is illegal.” Then you can throw away all the POE junk on CH. This is simple and does not require much judgment. If the pitcher picks up her pivot foot and puts it back down, you can see it from almost anywhere on the field and you can call it.
2. Leap. Right Mike, legalize it. Use the MenÂ’s rule requiring toe down. Simple to call. If we also shorten the pitching circle, the leap will become inconsequential.
3. Stride foot outside the 24” length. This is one we umpires must really start calling. Younger and younger pitchers are driving way outside and throwing the screwball pitch back into the batter. I recommend parallel chalk lines defining the 24” width bisecting the 14’ circle. While they will quickly get rubbed out where the stride foot is landing, enough will be left at the front and back of the circle to provide sight lines from home and 2B to visually line up where the stride foot is landing.

The KISS theory as applied to softball pitching rules.

WMB

[Steve M]

The old player in me sez "You throw it, I'll hit it. I don't care how you throw it. If you can throw it by me, good for you. If you can't, good for me."

That being said, I like Mike's take and explanation - but agree that there's no way it would ever come about.

[greymule]

If making the circle the do-not-touch line works, fine. But I don't think I've ever seen a pitcher go that far forward on the delivery, replant, leap, or legal. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
If making the circle the do-not-touch line works, fine. But I don't think I've ever seen a pitcher go that far forward on the delivery, replant, leap, or legal. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

Than you haven't been watching the NCAA championship rounds the last few years. Finch and Osterman routinely get to the circle (and often outside the H.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
I donÂ’t have a problem with the pitching distances, which advance from 35Â’ to 43Â’ as the pitcher gains physical strength and ability. Note that batters have shortened the pitching distance by as much as 5Â’ by crowding the front of the box; if they arenÂ’t concerned, why move the pitcher back? Improved batting skills are closing the gap between pitchers and batters. I donÂ’t see a high school team worth itÂ’s salt that doesnÂ’t have at least one .500+ batter, and many have two. My granddaughter, a shrimp of a girl with no power, still batted over .300 at JV ball.

If anything, you might shrink the circle from 16’ dia to 14’ and not allow the stride foot to land completely outside it. This would cut down on the big push and probably minimize the illegal (or perceived illegal) actions associated with it. May be a moot point as more younger pitchers are going away from the long leap ‘n drag style in favor of a more controlled pitching motion. (Which is a further indication they can no longer overpower the hitters and must focus more on position and movement of the ball.)

I agree with Mike on allowing a step back. NFHS allows it; ASA does for Men and JO Boys; time for ASA to allow it for the girls. IMO, the ASA rule is cause for many of the leaping issues. With both feet tied so close to each other (4” apart), the ASA pitcher tends to drive her body up and out for the forward drive. The HS pitcher, starting from behind the plate, tends to drive her body forward (level, more than up).

A simple wording change and minor modifications can eliminate all the Illegal Pitch confusion.

1. Crow Hop – Go with NFHS definition that CH is a re-plant of the pitching foot. The ASA “re-push” just confuses the issue. Then get the timing right! The ISF has it right; a CH occurs when the pivot foot replants before the stride foot breaks contact with the plate. (Or, if we allow the step back, then “before the stride foot passes over the plate.”) Modify ASA 6.3.h and NFHS 6.2.c with “Replanting the pivot foot prior to the stride foot passing over the plate is illegal.” Then you can throw away all the POE junk on CH. This is simple and does not require much judgment. If the pitcher picks up her pivot foot and puts it back down, you can see it from almost anywhere on the field and you can call it.
2. Leap. Right Mike, legalize it. Use the MenÂ’s rule requiring toe down. Simple to call. If we also shorten the pitching circle, the leap will become inconsequential.
3. Stride foot outside the 24” length. This is one we umpires must really start calling. Younger and younger pitchers are driving way outside and throwing the screwball pitch back into the batter. I recommend parallel chalk lines defining the 24” width bisecting the 14’ circle. While they will quickly get rubbed out where the stride foot is landing, enough will be left at the front and back of the circle to provide sight lines from home and 2B to visually line up where the stride foot is landing.

The KISS theory as applied to softball pitching rules.

WMB

I have no problem with keeping it simple, but you may be missing the point. In my scenario, it would not be illegal to leap or crow hop, so there is no need to redefine anything. My method couldn't me more simpler. Start with the pivot foot in the plate, stay within the H and do not stride any further than 8'. This is why you move the pitcher's plate back, to actually have the pitcher end up make the delivery from where they would be if there was no leaping or crow hopping.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
The need really doesn't exist, but it gives game officials the ability to concentrate on calling the game at hand and not worry about the "cheating" pitchers.

Mike, are you saying the only need is to get the complainers to quit complaining?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota

Mike, are you saying the only need is to get the complainers to quit complaining?

Like that is even possible on a softball field!

No, that isn't what I meant by that statement. The "need" that doesn't exist is that of a rule.

The change is not needed because there is already a rule in place. My suggestion is to ease the necessary constant monitoring which only feeds those complaining and can be a distraction for the umpires.

The simplification actually benefits everyone, at least in my mind

[Andy]

Hey, while we are changing the pitching rules, let's re-define the strike zone, too!

That would probably cut down the amount of postings on eteamz by about 50%

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Andy
Hey, while we are changing the pitching rules, let's re-define the strike zone, too!

That would probably cut down the amount of postings on eteamz by about 50%

No problem, but you have to do one thing. Tell me what to use for a definitive point for the top of the zone. Give me a viable solution, and I'll see about making it a proposal next year.


Remember, speaking ASA. Must be something which can be used by men & women, youth and adult.

Good luck.